Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-15-2013, 12:46 AM   #821
mattmmille
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
mattmmille's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 999
Liked 334 Times on 213 Posts
Likes Given: 358

Default

Wow...very impressed with your dedication to ciders and cysers! I'm a complete newbie and started making small batches of cyser due to an abundance of crabapples in my neighborhood that nobody else is using. I currently have two batches racked and aging and one batch that I started 4 days ago. The first two are made with Champagne Yeast and the third is with Safale s-04. I had 4 cups of freshly extracted juice, 6 quarts of water, 1lb 12 oz white sugar, campden tablet, yeast nutrient, pectin enzyme and the extraction leftovers in a cheesecloth bag, in a primary fermentation bucket for 24 hours. Removed the bag and pitched the yeast. I'm letting the first two batches stay dry, priming and bottling. But for the third, I would like it to be a little sweeter. My OG for batch #3 is 1.053 adjusted. After 4 days, the SG is at 1.021 adjusted. So, my potential is for over 8% ABV, if it ferments out to the 0.990 range. I think a little sweetness might take a little of the edge off. I have no equipment for pasteurizing or cold crashing and have not yet attempted either. I prefer cyser, but only have bottling capability. I want to backsweeten, but read a lot about bottle bombs. I'm planning on using Munton's CarTabs (but wonder if floaters in my test bottles are coming from them?). I guess I'm looking to ferment out and then backsweeten with something non-fermentable. I am skeptical about Splenda, as I have heard people complain about weird aftertastes. I can rack into a couple of carboys and leave indefinitely, if a particular length of time is ideal. I would love to benefit from your experience and hear your thoughts/advice/comments. Thanks for indulging my ramble!!!
PS...I may try mixing with some regular apple varieties next year, but I wanted to see what the pure crabapples would do. So far, I like the aromas and flavors I'm getting. I'm also thinking about experimenting with a batch next year by including pumpkin pulp and cinnamon.

__________________
mattmmille is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2013, 03:53 PM   #822
CvilleKevin
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 1,251
Liked 75 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
I have found that Crab apples give me that missing body, and allow the finish to "hang". I attribute it to higher tannins.
Quote:
I may try mixing with some regular apple varieties next year, but I wanted to see what the pure crabapples would do.
Crabapples are great for picking up a mix. They do take a bit of patience to pick, but are often worth it. A few seasons ago, some friends were pressing apples and all we had were bushels of Empires and the juice was kinda mediocre until another friend showed up with two 5gal pails of crabapples. All it took was about 10 percent crabapples to make the juice really good. He also fermented a gallon of straight crabapple, which came out well. Now some of the commercial orchards around here are planting Hewes Crab which have high sugar, good tannins and big enough so they dont take all day to pick (golf ball size).

Quote:
I guess I'm looking to ferment out and then backsweeten with something non-fermentable.... I would love to benefit from your experience and hear your thoughts/advice/comments. Thanks for indulging my ramble!!!
While crabs are great in an apple mix, I'm not sure that they will be able to turn water into cider. I guess you will find out. If the trees still have apples, maybe you could employ some local kids to fill a couple 5gal buckets of crabs for you (something I've been thinking about myself) I'd suggest tasting both batches as the sg is dropping between say 1.015 and 1.000, and take note of what sg tasted the best to you. Then you can decide on the next batch if it is worthwhile to go to cold crashing or pasteurization to get that taste. Most of the apple flavor is in the last few points of apple sugar that ferment off. You can get back the sweetness with backsweetening, but you can really get back the apple flavor unless you use juice or some sort of apple based sweetener. If you are doing gallon batches, then cold crashing or pasteurization dont take much equipment
__________________
CvilleKevin is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2013, 06:25 PM   #823
CvilleKevin
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 1,251
Liked 75 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default Second pressing of the 2013 Season

We did the 2nd pressing of the 2013 Season a few weeks ago, on October 24th. I just finished crashing the last of 8 carboys from that batch - The mix was Stayman, Gala and Winesap apples. I forget exactly how much we got - it was about 200 gallons between myself and friends. I dont think the juice was as good as the first pressing, but final results are coming out pretty well. The Staymans probably could have used another week or two on the trees. They usually have fairly high sugar this time of year but the overall mix was only 1.042, which was lower than last time. We only could get half a bin of Winesap, so the juice wasnt as tart in the finish as I like. The mix still had a good aroma and flavor - the Galas were carrying the mix. I filled 8 carboys and bumped 7 with 6oz/gal of turbinado/corn sugar mix and one with Orange Blossom Honey.

I sulfited 4 of the carboys, and because the juice wasnt real tart, I used 1/6tsp in 6gal instead of the usual 1/8tsp (which is half the recommended amount). I pitched those with Brupaks, 3056, 3068, and WLP041. No sulfite on the other four, which were pitched with Brupaks, 3056, US05, and Wy3333 (for the cyser).

Basement temps have been nice and cool for the past 3 weeks - between 56 and 64, and mostly around 60. This kept the ferment times nice and slow, so the cider was a lot easier to manage than the first batch. Since the juice wasnt real tart to begin with, I let them go a little lower than usual before crashing. So far, all of the crashes seem to be holding - none have started back up after the crash. At the time of crashing, they were only dropping about a point a day, which seems to make the crash a lot more reliable.

I've also got a carboy going with some juice that I helped some friends press by hand a couple weeks ago. I wasnt planning on fermenting any, but the juice came out so good that I had to take a carboy home. It was 10 bushels of random #2 apples and another 10 bushels that supposedly were #2 Winesaps, but they looked like they were A grade and had perfect ripeness. The mix came out great with decent sugar (1.054), lots of flavor and plenty tart in the finish. I bumped it with 4oz/gal of sugar, pitched a pack of Brupaks and its chugging along

Next Saturday, the orchard is going to do a special pressing for cider week, using old school cider apples. Ashmead's Kernel, Spitzenburg, Arkansas Black, Pippen and Winesap. Its going to be twice the price of what I'm generally paying for a commercial apple mix, but I'm still contemplating filling up all 8 of my primaries, just to see how the heritage mix compares to the commercial #2 apple mixes that we've been getting

__________________
CvilleKevin is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-17-2013, 12:35 AM   #824
mattmmille
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
mattmmille's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 999
Liked 334 Times on 213 Posts
Likes Given: 358

Default

Hmmm. Well, I may do the pasteurization thing. Seems pretty straightforward and I have a big pressure canner that I could fit several bottles in at a time. (Not for pressure, just for size!) Sounds like, if it's done properly, it doesn't really affect the flavor. The first two batches have cleared in carboys nicely and I just bottled the first batch today. FG is 0.990 and OG was 1.047. For batch #3, though, if I want to rack and age, I would have to backsweeten and pasteurize, I guess. But, if I don't mind skipping the clarifying and aging, I could prime and bottle when the SG is still above 1.000 and pasteurize after a few days?
I'm afraid the crabs are starting to rot...really would have to pick through the carefully! But I have picked a BUNCH this year and made crabapple butter and crabapple jelly, in addition to 3 batches of cider. That heritage cider blend sounds good. Maybe I'll put together a blend through the Farmer's Market available varieties for my next batch! My recipe calls for about 4-1/2 lbs of apples (or crabs) and adding 6 quarts of water. I don't have a press, but my juice extractor works fine for small batches. I think I'll take a breather and keep working on what I have going until after Thanksgiving!

imag1814.jpg   imag1815_1.jpg   imag1816.jpg  
__________________
mattmmille is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-21-2013, 03:02 AM   #825
mattmmille
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
mattmmille's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 999
Liked 334 Times on 213 Posts
Likes Given: 358

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattmmille View Post
Hmmm. Well, I may do the pasteurization thing. Seems pretty straightforward and I have a big pressure canner that I could fit several bottles in at a time. (Not for pressure, just for size!) Sounds like, if it's done properly, it doesn't really affect the flavor. The first two batches have cleared in carboys nicely and I just bottled the first batch today. FG is 0.990 and OG was 1.047. For batch #3, though, if I want to rack and age, I would have to backsweeten and pasteurize, I guess. But, if I don't mind skipping the clarifying and aging, I could prime and bottle when the SG is still above 1.000 and pasteurize after a few days?
I'm afraid the crabs are starting to rot...really would have to pick through the carefully! But I have picked a BUNCH this year and made crabapple butter and crabapple jelly, in addition to 3 batches of cider. That heritage cider blend sounds good. Maybe I'll put together a blend through the Farmer's Market available varieties for my next batch! My recipe calls for about 4-1/2 lbs of apples (or crabs) and adding 6 quarts of water. I don't have a press, but my juice extractor works fine for small batches. I think I'll take a breather and keep working on what I have going until after Thanksgiving!
Well, I did pick a few more crabs and mixed with some Fuji apples. I created 2 buckets with about a gallon and a half in each. Mixed with regular sugar, but when I divided into two, I think I weakened it too much. I added some honey and brown sugar to boost the SG, but I think it's still weak in apple flavor. I've never done it before, but I may wind up adding some apple juice concentrate. As for batch #3, I did pasteurize it...it was already giving a little gush from my test bottle after only two days. The pasteurization process went pretty well...I did have one bottle break right as I was reaching 190F. Luckily, I had the lid partially covering the pot. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried bringing the bottles up to temp with the water, but add them when the 190F is attained. Anyway...bottled and aging. A little sediment , but that's okay. Test bottle was slightly sweet and very tasty! I think these are going to be very good!
__________________

There are no small parts, only small actors.

mattmmille is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2013, 10:23 PM   #826
skitter
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 618
Liked 41 Times on 34 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Very informative! Lots of information to dig through, I spent the last 3 days reading the entire thing and it's a lot to absorb.

I just re-started using a 1g glass jug to experiment until I find the right mix. I started with 1g Musslemans and 1/5 packet EC-1118, which now that I have read this kinda screwed me!

I don't have a Hydrometer. That being said I am also finding that particular strain as mentioned by the OP is VERY hard to cold crash. I do not want a dry cider, I would like to retain some of the original sweetness, but I also want to bottle carb it as I do my own beer, however from all I am reading that is hard to do experimentally. Somewhat afraid of the pasteurization process with reading all about the explosions

Figuring at this point all I can do is wait for it to ferment out and back-sweeten a still cider until I either get a Hydro or I want to do a bit of experimentation using the "almost exhausted" method of carbonation. I may end up doing that this weekend, as I will be home to be able to check the bottles more regularly for over-pressure prior to pasteurization. Was hoping for a good start, should have read this before I started

Kevin, definitely looking forward to trying the S04 as I use that with my beer and always have some to spare, didn't even think of using that, and it seems to be better to be able to control like I would hope to.

__________________
skitter is offline
mattmmille Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 03:25 AM   #827
CvilleKevin
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 1,251
Liked 75 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
I do not want a dry cider, I would like to retain some of the original sweetness, but I also want to bottle carb it as I do my own beer, however from all I am reading that is hard to do experimentally.
All is not completely lost here. You can always do what I used to do when I was using EC1118 - which is to pick a day to drink it all with your friends, and then plan around that. EC1118 is hard to crash, but you can slow it down a bit by chilling if you need to. Go through the same steps as crashing, except it wont stop, so keep it in the fridge after the crash and after you've racked it off the sediment that drops in the crash. It will still ferment, but not as much. Then 2-3 days before you are planning to drink it, put it in a plastic screw top jug, keeping it in the fridge and it will carb up. Check the jug and relieve pressure if it seems like it might burst in the fridge. Yeah, its a PIA, but its only a gallon, and having a gallon of cider in your fridge thats about to explode is a good excuse to rally some friends

Quote:
Somewhat afraid of the pasteurization process with reading all about the explosions
I havent done bottle pasteurization before, but it doesnt look too difficult. Most of the explosion stories involve not following one of the steps correctly.

Quote:
or I want to do a bit of experimentation using the "almost exhausted" method of carbonation.
You cant use nitrogen reduction to stop EC1118. It needs very little nutrient and is often used to restart stuck fermentations.
__________________
CvilleKevin is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 04:02 AM   #828
boombrewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
boombrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ridgecrest, California
Posts: 32
Liked 5 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Awesome thread! Thanks to CvilleKevin. I brewed hard cider for 5 years and I still learned quite a bit reading this. Anyone ever do this with store bought apple juice for those of us who don't have access to fresh juice?

__________________
boombrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 05:56 PM   #829
grumpybrewingco
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: fenton, mi
Posts: 18
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Lalvin 1118-I just used this yeast for a cider-----tastes like dry white wine.
definitely using ale yeast next time.. thanks for the info!

__________________

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day

grumpybrewingco is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2013, 10:36 PM   #830
mattmmille
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
mattmmille's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cary, NC
Posts: 999
Liked 334 Times on 213 Posts
Likes Given: 358

Default

I just recently rediscovered an old childhood friend...Murray"s Cider. Made in Roanoke, Virginia from a blend of whole, tree ripened apples. No sugar or preservatives added and it's pasteurized. And a bonus...comes in a 64 oz glass carboy! I haven't tried it yet, but a friend adds yeast and pops on an airlock...voila! Better than using a frozen concentrate that has apple juice in it from China and Argentina!

imag1854.jpg   imag1855.jpg  
__________________
mattmmille is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Splenda/Honey/Sugar + Rainbow Root beer results Mellman Soda Making 8 03-22-2011 06:49 AM
Walk on the wildside - my wild yeast experiments Reddy Fermentation & Yeast 1 09-13-2009 11:47 PM
Apfelwein experiments (Rasberry, Brown Sugar, Yeast nutrient) unclejimbay Wine Making Forum 4 05-21-2009 04:35 PM
Yeast experiments seanyt Recipes/Ingredients 1 09-13-2008 02:57 PM