Cheeto

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CvilleKev,

on some of these wild yeast strains that you are getting have you considered harvesting and washing some of the yeast, with that you could try to reproduce some of your more favored brews?

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wreckinball9

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Rugen,
the 4184 stopped at 1.010 for me. the cider was left tasting sweet and appley. i had boosted with two pounds light brown sugar so im thinking its still close to 8% abv (didnt take OG). regardless, i am wicked happy with the result and recommend the sweet mead yeast.

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BWRIGHT

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Kev, I was wondering just how exactly you got the S-04 batch to stop fermenting. I've started a batch that is 3.5 gallons of grape juice and 1 gallon of apple. I want to keep it above 1.006. Did you just rack it to a secondary, crash cool, and then keg it. Did you get it to completely stop?

CvilleKevin

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Rugen – I’m glad to hear that your S23 improved. I finished off mine at a party a couple of weeks ago and it was great! It was the first keg to float (although we had already made a decent dent in it before the party). It was tough to stop fermenting though. Cold crashing it slowed it down, but it took 2 additional rackings to stop it at 1.002. I just started another batch. I crashed my 4184 batch at 1.002, and it dropped another couple of points over the next two weeks to 1.000. That was further than I wanted it go go and it started out pretty dry and raw tasting. That was a couple of months ago. It is just starting to get decent tasting now

Cheeto – I’ve considered harvesting and washing the wild yeast and probably will at some point, but for now I’m just experimenting with what happens naturally. I’ve only got a few wild batches to come out good so don’t have much basis of comparison for what makes one wild batch better than another. I started my first attempt to do a wild keg batch about 6 weeks ago. It came out pretty good. I crashed it at 1.014 and it is currently clearing in the secondary. It took a week for fermentation to start and I was just about to give up and add some ale yeast, but I’m glad I waited. I just started another wild keg batch yesterday.

Bwright – I usually rack to a spare 6gal carboy, then crash cool for one or two days and then rack into a 5 gal secondary. Usually I let the secondary sit a few weeks to continue clearing, but sometimes I go right into the keg - depending on how clear it is, how good it tastes, and whether I need something to tap. The S04 always stops right away, which is one of the reasons I like using it. Sometimes I will see some airlock activity with S04, but I’m pretty sure that is malolactic fermentation because the sg never drops. One thing that is a little puzzling to me is that last year I did a lot of different yeasts in gallon batches and they all cold crashed with no problems, even at fairly high sg. In 5 gallon batches, the S23 and 4184 sgs kept dropping after crashing. I’m not sure why. Maybe the larger volume and fermentation activity keeps some of the yeast warm enough to keep going. Come to think of it, I might try to make some sort of stand to make sure that the bottom of the carboy gets cold when I crash the S23 I just started. But the ale yeasts I’ve been using (S04, US05 and Nottingham) all crash with no problem, as did the 3068 and wild batch.

CvilleKevin

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Hi Folks - Here are some preliminary results from 21 experimental batches I started at the end of October, to check out the effects of k-meta and k-sorbate. All were done using the same juice which was a mix of Staymans and Winesaps, unpasteurized, with an unsweetened sg of 1.050 and pH of 3.7:

I made 16 single gallon batches that were all variations of the same recipe, plus another 5 gallons that were wild yeast batches, with different methods for stopping fermentation. I bottled three liters from each batch. My goal was to taste one liter from each batch as soon after bottling as possible, then again sometime in the Spring and then next Fall, to see how they hold up over time.

Much to my surprise, the wild batches finished fermenting first. I didn’t check them until they got to 1.002, which was a little too dry, but they were still drinkable. The five wild batches were finished as follows:
- One just cold crashed with no additives.
- One with half the recommend dose of k-meta (1/40tsp) after fermentation and then cold crashed.
- One with the recommended 1/20tsp of k-meta after fermentation and cold crash.
- One with a half dose of k-meta and half a dose (1/4tsp) of k-sorbate after fermentation, no cold crash
- One with a full dose of k-meta and half a dose of k-sorbate after fermentation, no cold crash.

I didn’t have time to set up a dedicated tasting for these so we opened them at the beginning of a party a few weeks ago and checked them out. I had rating sheets, but it was kinda hectic and there was better stuff on tap so most people only tasted 2 or 3 before moving on and they all got mediocre scores. So I dont have much of a consensus opinion on these, just my own impression. This was about a month after bottling and at this point, the k-meta and k-sorbate both had easily discernible tastes. The k-meta had the sour bite, even in the half dose and the k-sorbate has a sweeter, sort of spicy taste, that I cant really describe, but if you put a little bit of fresh k-sorbate on your tongue, that’s the taste. It doesn’t change much after reacting with the cider for a month. Fortunately the two additives are somewhat complimentary. My favorite of the five was the one with the ½ dose of k-meta, plus the k-sorbate, but that was partly because the ciders didn’t have a whole lot of taste to start with – most of the sugar was gone. The k-sorbated batches were also noticeably clearer than the ones I cold crashed, so it acts somewhat as a clearing agent.

While the wild yeast batches were fermenting away, I was keeping a closer watch on the 16 S04 batches. All of them had 3oz of organic cane sugar and 1.5oz of corn sugar to bump the sg to 1.060. I tried to stop them all at 1.006, but I wasn’t able to check them every night so one finished at 1.008 and a few went to 1.004 and 1.002. The batches were as follows:

- No k-meta added before or after fermentation - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards - cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards - cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - cold crash
- regular dose k-meta before fermentation, none afterwards – cold crash

- No k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 dose afterwards – sorbate, no cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, ½ dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- No k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 1/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- 1/3 dose k-meta before fermentation, 2/3 afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, ½ afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash
- ½ dose k-meta before fermentation, regular dose afterwards - sorbate, no cold crash

When I sorbated these, I used the full recommended 1/2tsp dose. I tried the first few with 1/4tsp but that was not enough stop the fermentation of the S04. For the wild batches ¼tsp was enough to stop fermentation. As with the wild yeast batches, the ones with sorbate cleared up more than the ones I cold crashed.

After I bottled these, I realized that 16 different batches would be really tough to compare all at once, but by then it was too late to go back and re-think this. Last weekend a good friend had a birthday, so we had a critical mass for a tasting. Amazingly, besides myself a half dozen folks made it through all of the batches and scored them and several folks got partially through the list, so I have a few other opinions to go on besides my own taste.

The batch with no k-meta before fermentation, a full dose of k-meta afterwards and cold crashed scored the best across the board. Generally, the batches that had no k-meta in the beginning, some k-meta at the end and cold crashed scored better. The sorbated batches generally didn’t score as well, except for the batch with 1/3 dose of k-meta in the beginning, and 1/3 dose of k-meta at the end, just before sorbating. Maybe this is the optimal taste balance of k-meta to the sorbate, but I suspect the real reason was that this was the one batch that I stopped at 1.008, which was higher than all the others – in which case the lesson is that it doesn’t matter much what you do, just don’t let the sugar drop too low. For some reason, no one else liked the first batch that had no additives at all - just the cold crash, although it was one of my favorites

I didn’t like the sorbate as much on these batches as I did with the wild yeast batches, and most folks seemed to agree with the scoring I think part of it was because I had to use the full dose of sorbate to get the S04 to stop fermenting. Also, because these batches had a higher FG, they had a little more apple taste than the wild batches, and the sorbate stomped on that a bit. I was hoping that I could use sorbate as an alternative to cold crashing because its easier and it helps the cider to clear, but at this stage at least, I didn’t care for it as much. Maybe it will get better as time goes on. A few people really liked though, so I’d still recommend at least trying it and see if you like the taste, as it is easier than cold crashing.

Another thing that I found interesting and useful is that the k-meta taste wasn’t nearly as prominent when the k-meta is added after fermentation, compared to the same amount of k-meta added before fermentation. The tartness is still there, but its not as harsh. That would lead me to believe that in addition to having some taste of its own, the k-meta must also affect the fermentation – otherwise adding it earlier in the process ought to cause the taste to fade more. I’m hoping that this means that the preservative effects of the k-meta can be gained afterwards, so one could make a batch and then either drink it right away or add k-meta for storage.

BWRIGHT

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So after you crash cool and rack it, do you leave it in the fridge or can you bring it back to room temp to clear? I really don't have room in my kegerator for a 5 gallon carboy to be clearing. Also, would it be any harder to stop fermentation at like 1.006 as compared to 1.002?

CvilleKevin

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I usually bring it up to room temp to clear (room temp being my basement which stays between 58 and 65 these days). I've crashed S04 batches as high as 1.010 and they have always stayed stable. One thing I have learned is on the last rack after cooling, dont try to get every last drop of clear cider because when you get close to the bottom is when you are most likely to accidentally suck up some yeast. On the rack before the cooling, you can afford to be a little more sloppy because any yeast you accidentally suck up will precipitate out in the fridge.

phred_02

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Why all the effort to stop an active fermentation. Why not just let it ferment to dry then back sweeten to the desired taste and force carbonate if desired?

After all it appears that the ones with the highest residual sugar tend to be preferred.

BWRIGHT

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"Residual sugar" is not back sweetening with lactose or splenda. To me its not even comparable. The natural sugars in the grape juice are what makes it taste good. Lactose is made from milk. It's just not the same. Also, if let it ferment out all the way, it's going to be dry regardless of whether or not you back sweeten.

phred_02

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I'm not talking about lactose or splenda. I'm talking about back sweetening with either beet, cane, or corn sugar. Maybe it's just me, but I can't taste the difference between cider with residual sugar and cider that has been back sweetened with cane or beet sugar.

After all, many people here seem to be adding sugar to increase the alcohol content anyway. How do you know if it is the naturally occurring sugars that remain or the added sugars when you have residual sugar?