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Old 10-10-2011, 02:29 PM   #551
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CvilleKevin,
Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to the website where you bought those clear swing tops. I tried searching the thread but can't find the post would you mind posting that link again?

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Old 10-10-2011, 06:45 PM   #552
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I also posed this question in the fermentation forum but wanted some cider input.

So I've been messing around with cider for a few weeks and I have a nagging question that I need answered.

Does yeast metabolize sugar in order of complexity?

So in a cider could you end up with more apple flavor by adding a sugar that was less complex than the apple sugar? Example being dextrose...

Or in the same line of thinking could you brew 2 gallons of beer and allow the yeast to work it's way through maltose and then rack the beer ontop of 3 gallons of cider and end up with more apple flavor than if you added the cider to your wort at the beginning and the yeast worked on the simpler apple sugars for a longer period of time?

This might also depend on if you halted fermentation at the end to retain some residual sweetness rather than letting it go completely dry.

Any thoughts?

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Old 10-11-2011, 03:11 AM   #553
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Quote:
Somewhere in this thread you posted a link to the website where you bought those clear swing tops. I tried searching the thread but can't find the post would you mind posting that link again?
http://www.ebottles.com/showbottles.asp?familyid=1314

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Does yeast metabolize sugar in order of complexity?
I believe so - although that is based on taste and not looking at yeast and sugars under a microscope. Also I doubt that there is a clear dividing line between how the yeast devours the simple and more complex sugars, but that a higher proportion of simple sugars are consumed early in the ferment, with a higher proportion of complex sugars left at the end.

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So in a cider could you end up with more apple flavor by adding a sugar that was less complex than the apple sugar? Example being dextrose...
to some extent yes. except that even the simple sugars leave some residual taste. Even dextrose. People assume that dextrose ferments cleanly, but it doesnt - it leaves a slightly beery taste which makes it seem neutral in a beer but you can pick it out in a cider if you use enough of it. In my experience, if you use more than about 6 oz per gallon of dextrose or cane sugar, you will notice the difference compared to just apple juice, at the same final gravity. I've found that a mix of 2/3 turbinado to 1/3 dextrose leaves a taste that is more similar to apple when it ferments out, so you could go to 8oz per gallon before it gets noticeable, although I generally try to use no more than 4 to 6 oz/gal. That is for cold crashing though. I've found that starting with an SG of about 1.065 makes it more reliable to stop the yeast with crashing because the yeast is nearing its alcohol limit - but it will still keep going if you let it. I'm not certain how much added sugar it would take to reach the alcohol level of the yeast before the sugar is gone

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could you brew 2 gallons of beer and allow the yeast to work it's way through maltose and then rack the beer ontop of 3 gallons of cider and end up with more apple flavor than if you added the cider to your wort at the beginning and the yeast worked on the simpler apple sugars for a longer period of time?
perhaps - if you use an ale or wheat yeast, the yeast would be partially slowed down by the alcohol level from the beer. How much apple flavor is left at the end would depend on whether the starting combined SGs of the wort and cider are high enough so that the yeast reaches its alcohol tolerance level before running out of apple sugars. I suspect if you stopped the ferment early via cold crashing, you would get more apple flavor this way than if you had added both ingredients together at the beginning. Sounds like it would be an interesting thing to try
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:05 PM   #554
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I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?

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Old 10-14-2011, 01:27 PM   #555
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1.042 = (more or less) 10.5% sugar (g/100 ml)
1.060 = 17.75% sugar
so you want to add 7.25 g sugar per every 100 ml juice, or 72.5g per L,
6g = 22.7 L,
72.5 g sugar x 22.7 L = 1.65 kg sugar for 6 gal.
boom
get drunk

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Old 10-14-2011, 01:35 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by dinnerstick View Post
1.042 = (more or less) 10.5% sugar (g/100 ml)
1.060 = 17.75% sugar
so you want to add 7.25 g sugar per every 100 ml juice, or 72.5g per L,
6g = 22.7 L,
72.5 g sugar x 22.7 L = 1.65 kg sugar for 6 gal.
boom
get drunk
Thank you.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:46 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by CvilleKevin View Post

Even though I havent added any of the clarifiers yet, there were some interesting differences between the 5 batches with pectin enzyme added ahead of time vs the 5 batches without the pectic enzyme:

The 5 batches with the pectic enzyme were a lot lighter in color, which I expected. What I didnt expect is that they also fermented quite a bit faster than the batches without the enzyme, and even a little bit faster than the gallon of unpasteurized juice, even though all 11 batches used the same S04 yeast.

...

The pectic enzyme may also make the juice harder to crash, because all 5 of the jugs with the enzyme are noticably swollen after being racked and crashed for several days, while the batches without the enzyme seem to have stopped dead without any additonal swelling in the fridge - although to be fair, the batches with the enzyme have been in the fridge longer, so I'm going to let them all go a while longer to see if the batches without the enzyme eventually swell.
CVilleKevin,

I am getting some unpasteurized cider from an orchard this weekend. I know I need to put in 1 campden tablet per gallon and let it sit 24 hours before adding the yeast. (I plan to use S-04 for a cold-crashed sweet cider and D47 for a dry cider. No additional sugar in either.)

My question is about the pectic enzyme. I had thought to use it (adding it with the campden), but your earlier posting indicated that it might be harder to cold crash the cider if I use the pectic enzyme. Do you still think this is true?

Also, did you notice any flavor differences when using the pectic enzyme?

Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:47 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by nyer View Post
I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?
you want to boost it 18 gravity points per gallon, or a total of 108 gravity points for the 6 gallons. Cane sugar contains 45 gravity points per pound, so you're looking at adding 2.4 pounds of sugar for the entire 6 gallon batch (or 0.4 pounds per gallon).

In metric: ~1.1 kg for the 6 gallons - or 0.18 kg (180g) per gallon
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:20 PM   #559
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When using the S04 for a 1 gal batch, how much do you pitch?

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Old 10-14-2011, 11:37 PM   #560
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I bought 6 gallons of juice yesterday and the gravity is 1.042. Does anyone know approx. how much sugar it should take to get it up to 1.060?
I didnt realize that there were so many different answers to this question. I've always used the formula in Anne Proulx's book, "Cider", which says 4.5oz sugar per gallon for 10 points. Ben Watson's Cider book has the same formula. So 18 points would be 8.1 oz per gallon. That works out to a little over 3 pounds or 1.38kg - which is somewhere in between what dinnerstick and jlem got. I have no idea which of these numbers is the 'right' one, but 3 pounds plus or minus ought to get you in the ballpark.

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your earlier posting indicated that it might be harder to cold crash the cider if I use the pectic enzyme. Do you still think this is true?
Yeah, I suspect that the pectic enzyme increases the available nutrients in the cider, making it harder to crash. OTOH, I still have about 3 dozen bottles from that experiment which have been stored for a year at room temp and none have burst, so the effect cant be that bad

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Also, did you notice any flavor differences when using the pectic enzyme?
I still havent tasted any of those yet. Its been on my to-do list for a while, but I just havent got around to it. They are still sitting in my basement. Fortunately the juice has all been clearing nicely during the crash this season, so it hasnt been as pressing of an issue. I suppose I should do a tasting soon, just to free the bottles up. Now the challenge will be to find enough friends who are willing to drink 12 different liters of essentially the same recipe with various clearing agents, to pick out off flavors.

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When using the S04 for a 1 gal batch, how much do you pitch?
Anywhere from 1/5 to 1/2 a packet
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