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Old 03-24-2010, 03:52 PM   #311
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Default notes on latest experimental batches



I finished bottling all but 1 of the last 21 one gallon experimental batches from the last batch of juice last week. The juice was pressed on Jan 13th and is a mix of 50 percent Stayman, 25 percent York, 25 percent Empire. OG 1.068, pH 3.9, no k-meta

I crashed most of these three weeks later. I was out of bottles so they sat in the fridge for a while. The yeasts were WLP005, WLP320, WLP500, WLP565, Wyeast 1099, Wyeast 1275, and Wyeast 1968. For each yeast strain, I did one batch with no sugar, one with 2oz turbinado/dextrose mix per gallon and one with 3oz honey. I didnt add much sugar/honey because the OG was so high - these were late season apples.

Most of these came out pretty good, although a little on the dry side for my taste. I should have checked them earlier. The ones that I bumped with a bit of sugar came out the best, mainly because there was still some residual sweetness left when I crashed them.

Of the batches with sugar added, all but the WLP565 were very drinkable. The 565 might have been better if I caught it earlier, but by three weeks it was pretty much flavorless. The WLP005, WLP500 and Wyeast 1099 had the most residual sugar and tasted great. The WLP320 was a little drier. The 1275 was dry (1.000) but tasted very good and the 1968 is so-so

Of the batches with no sugar, the WLP005, WLP500 and Wyeast 1099 tasted the best. All of the rest were quite dry. Of the dry batches the 1275 was most drinkable. The 1275 seems to maintain a lot of flavor when the sugar is gone, so if you like em dry, I'd recommend 1275.

Of the batches with honey, the WLP005 and WLP320 tasted the best. The others were mostly drinkable but probably not worth repeating. And for some reason the WLP500 batch is still chugging along although its about ready to crash. It was way slower than the rest.

Next Wednesday I'm having some folks over to do a tasting of these and some previous batches, so I'll have a broader evaluation than just my own bottling notes. If any of you are close to Charlottesville and want to drop by for some cider, PM me.
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:31 PM   #312
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WLP005 is awesome for ciders, I seem to go back to it alot, although thoes belgian yeasts just taste strange for my tastes, but I generally do my ciders to dry.

You should try WLP023, works awesome too.

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Old 03-27-2010, 12:02 AM   #313
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WLP023 was one that I wanted to try for this last round of experimental batches, but I didnt get my act together early enough to order it before the pressing and the LHBS was out of it. There are still about a dozen yeasts that I want to try out next year. So many yeasts, so little time. I've got about a dozen now that I really like and a few more that are promising, so I suppose at some time Im gonna quit with the experimental batches and get back to just doing kegs.

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Old 04-03-2010, 04:59 AM   #314
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Last Wednesday some friends came over to help evaluate the latest experimental batches. We checked out a couple of previous favorites and then 21 new ciders. Eighteen folks were kind enough fill out rating sheets and I got some great feedback. Three months in the bottle was real good for the UK yeasts (as well as Morgans, which is from Beenleigh, Australia, via a UK store). They all got noticeably better from the last time I tasted them.

The 3333 batch from October picked up a secondary fermentation. It didn’t break the bottle, but it had a strong carb and tasted like it had dropped at least 4 points in the bottle. It was the first one we tasted. All the other bottles were either completely still or a very tiny bit of carbonation, having been bottled from 2 weeks to almost 6 months ago. I put all the rest of my 3333 bottles in the fridge just in case this is a problem with that yeast not staying stable after the crash.

The ciders were mostly from the last two pressings and three from an earlier pressing:
Jan 13th 2009: 50:% Stayman, 25% York and 25% Empire. OG 1.066 Bottled March 2010
Nov 24th 2009: 50% Stayman and 50% Pink Lady.. OG 1.060. Bottled Dec 2009
Oct 8th 2009: 50% Stayman, 25% York and 25% Empire. OG 1.054 Bottled October 2009

Here are the ciders with average score ( rated 1-10, with 10 highest) and [overall ranking] for the top batches

rank rating Pressing Yeast Additives? final gravity

(6.36) - SYE 10-8-09 Wyeast 3333 Bavarian Wheat yeast no sugar 1.010
(3.14) - SYE 1-13-10 Wyeast 1275: Thames Valley Ale turbinado 1.000
(7.04) - SYE 1-13-10 Wyeast 005 British Ale yeast 3oz sage honey 1.008
(6.39) - SYE 1-13-10 White Labs 500 Trappist Ale Yeast turbinado 1.012
(6.32) - SYE 10-8-09 White Labs 380 Hefeweizen yeast no sugar 1.010
(4.62) - SPL 11-24-09 Enoferm Assmanhaussen wine yeast no sugar 1.005
[9] (7.37) - SPL 11-24-09 Youngs Ale yeast no sugar 1.010
(4.57) - SYE 1-13-10 Wyeast 1275: Thames Valley Ale no sugar 1.000
[5] (7.70) - SYE 10-8-09 Wyeast 3056 Bavarian blend yeast, turbinado 1.012
[7] (7.65) - SPL 11-24-09 Morgan Ale Yeast no sugar 1.008
[8] (7.43) - SYE 1-13-10 White Labs 320 Hefeweizen yeast orange blossom honey 1.004
(6.67) - SPL 11-24-09 Gervin English Ale yeast no sugar 1.008
(6.08) - SYE 1-13-10 White Labs 500 Trappist Ale Yeast no sugar 1.002
[10] (7.36) - SYE 1-13-10 Wyeast 005 British Ale yeast 2.25oz turbinado 1.012
(5.93) - SPL 11-24-09 Lalvin RHST wine yeast no sugar 1.000
[4] (7.86) - SPL 11-24-09 Youngs Lager yeast no sugar 1.010
(6.75) - SYE 1-13-10 White Labs 320 Hefeweizen yeast no sugar 1.002
[2] (8.00) - SPL 11-24-09 Brupaks Ale yeast no sugar 1.012
[6] (7.67) - SPL 11-24-09 Ritchies Real lager yeast no sugar 1.012
[1] (8.25) - SYE 1-13-10 White Labs 005 British Ale yeast no sugar 1.010
[3] (8.00) - SPL 11-24-09 Ritchies Real ale yeast no sugar 1.010

Take those last couple scores with a grain of salt, as these were the last ciders of the evening, although the WLP005 was very good as was the Brupaks. I see multiple kegs of those two for next season. I thought the Gervins, Youngs Ale and Ritchies Lager were all at least as good as the Ritchies Ale. The Wyeast 3056 makes a great sweet cider. I liked the WLP500 a lot, but not too many agreed with me. Same with the Wyeast 1275 and RHST, both of which make a decent dry cider. Overall, dry ciders don’t get much love, although some people like them a lot and find the other stuff too sweet. The driest of the top 10 ciders was the Morgan Ale at 1.008. That one had a nice sour apple finish.

Right now, what I like the most about the Brupaks, Gervins, Morgan, Ritichie and Young yeasts is that they are all dry yeasts and I have an extra packet of each in my fridge for next season. They have mostly Fall 2011 expiration dates. Hopefully before I run out of these, someone will start distributing them in the US.
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:56 PM   #315
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Last night I took two bottles from 3333 batches to the local homebrew club tasting. I was curious if they had also carbed in the bottle like the one we tasted last week.

One bottle was from a 3333 batch with honey and the other with turbinado. They both had a nice carb and a good pub cider taste with just enough sweetness and a nice sour apple finish. The carb on both bottles was enough to keep them bubbling through the tasting but not so strong that there was any worry about gushing.

Now I kinda wish I had not put the rest of the 3333 batches in the fridge. I suspect that if I had left them alone they would not have carbed much further because there was not enough nutrient left in the juice.

One of my goals in experimenting with these wheat yeasts was to find some that would be good for bottle conditioning a sweet cider, and it looks like the 3333 might be a good candidate.

Its now been almost 6 months since the 3333 batches were bottled. I'm planning to get some storage containers that can withstand bottles bursting, so next year I plan to repeat the 3333 batches and see (a) how long before the carb is good and (b) can it last a year without any bottles breaking. I have a 3333 keg batch with honey in the primary right now, so I might experiment with bottling some of those right after the crash and see how it goes.

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Old 05-23-2010, 05:11 PM   #316
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Kevin,

Any updates? My last batch of brett b cider came out mighty fine, i tried my last 22 oz bottle thats aged for a few months and it seems to have picked up a slight carbonation but nothing to worry about. Flavor profile has picked up some pineapple mango style flavors, im assuming thats the brett. The apple flavor still shines through. I think i may have found a winner here.

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Old 05-23-2010, 05:55 PM   #317
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Only just found this thread
But what a great thread with a wealth of information
I too have some cider under different yeast strains so I can see the difference.
Last fall I got 20 gallons fresh pressed from local farm unpasteurized.
Added my favorite yeast which is white labs English Cider yeast WPL775 which ferments completely dry on 10 gallons. And I used safale 04 and red star Montrachet on 5 gallons each
They are all still in my basement bulk aging.
Being an English man from the West Country originally I am very partial to dry ciders and scrumpy.
Thanks for all you information

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Old 05-23-2010, 09:01 PM   #318
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Funny you should ask .... This evening some friends are coming over and we're going to check out the last 25 of the experimental batches from last season. These are mostly the "B list" batches - stuff I didnt think was all that when they went into the bottles, but hopefully some have shaped up now that they have been in the bottle for a few months. I'm going to be pretty slammed this week but will try to write up the results in the next few days.



Here's a pic of the last 8 keg batches of the season, shortly before I kegged 6 of them. Two still have a bit of malic acid in the finish so are still aging. The juice is a mix of ~50% Staymans, ~25% York and ~25 % Empire, pressed on Jan 13th. No k-meta. OG ranged from 1.064 to 1.068. From left to right:
- Wild yeast, no sugar. Crashed at 1.020. Tastes pretty good. I left this one in my back porch, which is enclosed, but still gets near freezing during the winter. That seems to have worked out pretty well. The ferment didnt run away like some others did and crashing/racking stopped it dead. Easiest wild yeast keg batch I've done so far (knock on wood)
- US05, 8oz turbinado, 4oz dextrose (just a bit of sugar, cause US05 likes a little sugar bump). Added raspberries right before crashing at 1.004. A little on the dry side but very good. The keg is almost gone
- US05, 8oz turbinado, 4oz dextrose (just a bit of sugar, cause US05 likes a little sugar bump). Crashed at 1.010. Had a bit of MA in the finish, but I kegged it anyway for a party a couple months ago
- Wyeast 3068, no sugar. I crashed this at 1.010, which is lower than I've let the 3068 go before - and a little too low for this yeast IMHO. Its OK, but not as good as previous 3068 batches
- Wyeast 3056, no sugar. Crashed at 1.022. Tastes great. SWMBO and I just finished the keg off last night. I'm pretty sure this yeast is going to take the place of the 3068 for SWMBO's favorite, although hard to say for sure since I let the last batch of 3068 go a little long
- S04, no sugar. crashed at 1.012, has a bit of MA in the finish, so I'm still bulk aging this one.
- Nottingham, no sugar, crashed at 1.012, has a bit of MA in the finish, so I'm still bulk aging this one.
- Wyeast 3333, 2lbs Orange blossom honey, crashed at 1.012. This one was really good. I saved 12 grolsh bottles to see if they would carb up like my last batch with 3333 did. I'm planning to wait another month or two and then drink one a month for the next 12 months (or until they start bursting, whichever comes first). The rest of the keg was quickly dispatched at a party.

I still have several half kegs, plus the two that I havent kegged yet and about 150 or so bottles. So it looks like this might be the first season where I'm able to save enough to make it through to next seaon. Still a little early to say for sure though. Could be a long hot summer.

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Old 05-30-2010, 06:23 AM   #319
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The B list experimental batches turned out to be a few Bs and mostly Cs and Ds and at least one F.

We only made it through 12 liters, as well as finishing off half a keg of a real tasty batch made from Stayman and Pink Lady apples, 2 lbs of Orange blossom honey, and Wyeast 3638 Bavarian Wheat yeast.

I'd say 2 out of the 12 were pretty decent, another 4 are worth saving because a few people like them a lot, and the other 6 are not worth saving

The experimental batch ciders were from 4 pressings:
Jan 13th 2009: 50:% Stayman, 25% York and 25% Empire. OG 1.066 Bottled March 2010
Nov 24th 2009: 50% Stayman and 50% Pink Lady.. OG 1.060. Bottled Dec 2009
Oct 8th 2009: 50% Stayman, 25% York and 25% Empire. OG 1.054 Bottled October 2009
Sept 9th 2009 Cortland, McIntosh, Gala, Jonanthan, OG 1.050 Bottled October 2009

Eleven folks were kind enough fill out rating sheets and as you can see, most of these scored pretty dismally.

Here are the ciders with average score ( rated 1-10, with 10 highest) and [overall ranking] for the top batches

rank rating Pressing Yeast Additives? final gravity
[2] (6.71) SYE 10-08-09 Wyeast 1010 American Wheat yeast, turbinado 1.012
[ ] (3.7) SYE 1-13-10 WLP565 Belgian Saison yeast, turbinado 0.998
[ ] (4.25) SYE 10-08-09 Wy3942 Belgian Wheat yeast, wildflower honey 1.002
[5] (4.22) CMGJ 9-14-09 Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan, light malt 1.024
[ ] (3.86) SPL 11-24-09 Youngs cider yeast, no sugar 0.998
[4] (5.33) SYE 1-13-10 Wyeast 1099 Whitbread Ale Yeast, no sugar 1.004
[1] (7.4) SYE 10-08-09 Wy2001 Pilsner Urquell yeast, turbinado 1.010
[3] (5.05) SYE 1-13-10 Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale Yeast, turbinado 1.000
[ ] (5.2) SYE 1-13-10 WLP565 Belgian Saison yeast, sage honey 0.998
[ ] (4.25) SYE 10-08-09 Wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat yeast, no sugar 1.010
[ ] (5) SPL 11-24-09 Safale K97 German Ale yeast, no sugar 1.000
[6] (5.25) SPL 11-24-09 Wy2001 Pilsner Urquell yeast, amber malt 1.014

I agreed with the same top two as my friends. Since making these gallon batches, I've done keg batches with each of these yeasts. The 2001 Pilsner Urqel goes real good with my juice for a dry pub cider. Nice apple taste, not too sweet, clean finish. It had a little sulfur when I bottled it but its gone now. The keg batch with the 2001 also came very well, although it took a while in the keg to scrub the sulfur smell. It throws off a lot of sulfur during the ferment as well. I'll wait till it gets real cold before doing another batch of the 2001.

The 1010 wheat yeast is fruitier and juicer tasting with a bit more of a sour finish. I think it would have scored better with a few points more sugar to balance the sour. I put raspberries in the 1010 keg batch and crashed it at 1.012. That worked out great. There was also a bit of sulfur that developed about 2 weeks after I kegged it, but it scrubbed out easily.

I adjusted the rankings for the next 4 ciders, because the only reason to keep them is that a few people liked them a lot even though they mostly got no love. The Wheast 1099 and 1968 batches both had a good amount of flavor for being so dry. The two batches with malt also had a few fans. The 3068 tasted a little like a lambic. The 2001 batch was smoother but could have used more malt.

The other 6 batches are not worth saving for another round and I'll probably take the 12 remaining bottles from these batches and give them to a friend for making vinegar. I still have another 13 bottles in the fridge that I want to check out. Then I will have tasted all the batches from last year after a bit of aging in the bottle.

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Old 06-02-2010, 03:51 PM   #320
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Kevin, thank you for posting the results of your efforts to produce ciders/cysers with residual sweetness that owes itself to unfermented apple sugars…I believe you are right to assert that back-sweetening does not taste the same as those apple-juice-derived sugars that remain when the fermentation halts before reaching 1.000.

I found your thread after beginning a search for methods to use to produce a 5% alcohol carbonated ginger mead that ended with noticeable sweetness, and that held that sweetness for several weeks or longer. I have a recipe for ginger mead that takes only two weeks to complete, including the time needed to rack to a keg and carbonate to a high volume of CO2. It’s meant to be drunk very soon after being made…I think the touch of fruitiness that remains from the yeast adds to the brew’s enjoyment.
Brewing friends suggested potassium sorbate; however, from your thread and others I discovered all that really does is create “yeast eunuchs” who stop reproducing but continue eating sugar. And besides that there are flavor issues to contend with…and not for potassium sorbate alone, as other chemical additions often have an aftertaste…and these take time to fade away so they don’t work well for a quick mead.

After reading your thread more than once, I think I see where there are three four five routes involving yeast manipulation to leave some sweetness:
1. Early yeast flocculation
2. Induce a stuck fermentation
3. Cause the yeast to go dormant
Add: 4. Filter out yeast (Thanks to EricMc for pointing out this fourth method after reading this post)
Add: 5. Pasteurization/sterilization to kill yeast

Early yeast flocculation can be tough to do. Picking a low attenuating strain helps, but not much when you consider the high fermentability of the sugars that are in cider and honey. The research papers I have found point to only two strong factors that decide when yeast will flocculate: decreased sugar content and increased ethanol content. It seems we can disregard decreased sugar content, as all it really ends up meaning is NO sugar content before flocculation begins. Increasing ethanol is doable, in fact desired to a point; yeast strain selection is the first step in this direction, as alcohol tolerance is part of how we identify a yeast strain.
I see where you often add additional sugars to bring your ciders up to 1.060 or so. I expect that this pulls in enough sugars to increase the ethanol content, but not so many that you end up with rocket fuel or a cloyingly sweet cider. Maybe there is a fine balance going on here, where you bring the yeast close to the flocculation point, but not too strong or too sweet in the end. But here’s where I hit a point of uncertainty: does cold crashing aid in inducing early flocculation for yeasts that are on the verge of flocculating? I have not found solid experiment-based evidence that suggests this. I’ve seen where people stated this in forums, but that alone does not make it true…they may be making an assumption that is incorrect.
By the way, have you seen/heard that calcium is a mineral that is vital to good flocculation? Not much, just something on the order of ¼-teaspoon calcium chloride in 5 gallons. Is there calcium in apple juice? (Oh, and it helps that one of the effects of chloride in a brew is to enhance the perception of sweetness)

“Induce a stuck fermentation” Seems this is what keeving is all about. (well, okay, in the sense that "stuck" may include "slow fermentation," and/or "fails to ferment to its normal conclusion") The reduction of vital fermentation nutrients can cause a stuck fermentation…more so for some strains of yeast that use lots of nitrogen to grow. I’ve given my recipe for two-week ginger mead out to friends, and their first question is “what, no yeast nutrients?” I omitted them at first because it’s such a low-gravity mead that I thought it superfluous; but after reading your post I now see where it benefits me to have a slower fermentation that I can halt at just the right sweetness – and not have any nutrient-derived off-flavors to age out. How nice for me that honey lacks nitrogen! (It does lack it, right?) The amount of yeast you start the fermentation with will matter here as well; a very large amount of healthy yeast will be less susceptible to a low nutrient condition, as they are already starting with plenty of intra-cellular nitrogen. I’d bet that a full packet of dry yeast in a gallon batch would possibly plow through regardless of low nutrients.

“Cause the yeast to go dormant” Okay, simply put this is cold crashing. Here’s the question that I cannot find an answer to: do the yeast flocculate when this occurs, or simply drop out of suspension? There is a difference, and it matters because if they flocculate out when exposed to temperatures below 40F then perhaps anything that aids in flocculation will aid with cold crashing (remember calcium?). Plus, I would expect that if they do flocculate when induced to go dormant, then hastening that flocculation will hasten the drop-out time required.

I started a 3-gallon batch recently, and I’ll follow your process for cold crashing when the batch reaches a pleasant level of sweetness. I did add calcium chloride, just to see its effects; but really, it won’t help me determine much because I have no past non-CaCl2 cold-crashed batches to compare.

Which brings me to another point. I had several classes in my college career that required and/or taught sound experimental design, and how to evaluate evidence for validity. I must say your “experiments” are run quite well; you often hold all but one variable stable, which means you can evaluate the effect of that one variable in an objective manner…plus you conduct taste tests to broaden feedback. Nice work, keep it up…especially the posting it online part!

Cheers,
JohnW

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