Last night some friends came over and we polished off another 13 liters of various batches – Seven with wild yeast and five with various other yeasts.
The overall favorite was a bottle of farmhouse cider made by the guy who runs the press where I get most of my juice. He gave me a couple of liters at the beginning of the year, from a barrel that they let ferment naturally in one of the sheds. It was a mix of Staymans and Winesaps and at the time was very sweet – sg of 1.030 when I drank the first liter. The second liter has been sitting in my fridge since January. It must have continued to carbonate in the fridge because it popped and started foaming hard as soon I opened it. I had to snap the top back on to keep it in the bottle. My guess is that the SG dropped at least another 5 points or so while it was in the fridge. Fortunately it didn’t crack the bottle. It tasted a lot like a JK Scrumpy. Distinct natural yeast taste, fairly sweet, but not overly so.
Just behind the farmhouse cider, rating-wise, was another wild yeast cider - a keg batch I made last Fall, from Staymans and Romes, pressed Nov 24. The SG was 1.064 and I crashed it on Dec 19 at 1.014. It wasn’t quite as sweet as the farmhouse – more like a Samuel Smith than a JK Scrumpy. Some folks like it better because it wasn’t so sweet, but on average the farmhouse batch scored a little higher.
Number three, and my personal favorite of this round, was from the same Stayman/Rome batch, no extra sugar and S04 yeast. Crashed at 1.010 on Dec 20. I left it in the secondary until March 12, hoping it would clear, but it never did. The two liters I pulled from the keg finally did clear. Its probably more accurate so say they are still in the process of clearing. Most of the bottle was clear as a bell, with about an inch of sediment on the bottom that hasn’t compacted yet. Overall, it was nice and crisp with great apple flavor. Even the sediment tasted good.
Almost tied with the Staymans/Rome/S04 batch was a bottle of York and Fuji with Wyeast 3068 – always a crowd favorite. I don’t think it was quite as good as when it was in the keg and my girlfriend agreed. Still very drinkable, but maybe a little past its peak. I didn’t put any k-meta in this batch, and its been almost 6 months since pressing, which might have something to do with the taste peaking.
The other ale yeast batches were mostly OK – nothing to write home about though.
The other 5 wild yeast batches were interesting – unfortunately not in a good way. These were all from single gallon batches, Staymans and Winesaps pressed on Oct 30 with sg of 1.50. I made three liters from each gallon. The first round was tasted in January (see page 7) and it was not all that great. Six months later the taste has changed somewhat, but not really gotten any better. These batches were the first time that I was able to get wild yeast to ferment down to 1.002 without picking up some sort of weird taste. However they don’t have much taste at all, except for the two that I sorbated (which taste mostly like sorbate, even though I only used half the recommended dosage). The ones that I added the k-meta to had lost the k-meta bitterness, but not much else to take its place
The interesting thing is that the three that I cold crashed all started fermenting again. They were very well carbonated even though I bottled them still – even the two that I added varying amounts of k-meta to. That would lead me to believe that wild yeast doesn’t cold crash very well, especially since the only bottle I’ve every burst was with a wild yeast batch last summer. However – the Stayman/Rome wild yeast batch, mentioned above, crashed just fine. I kegged that batch at 1.014 in January and saved a couple of liters when I finished the keg in March. It wasn’t any more carbonated than any of the other liters that I filled from kegs earlier this year. That make me wonder if for wild yeast, it is not just the cold crashing that stops the yeast, but cold crashing followed by kegging at 25psi. I’m not sure why that would make any difference, but it’s the main difference I can think of. It could also be different wild yeasts, although the apples were all from the same orchard and press. Both mixes used Staymans and it seems unlikely that Winesaps and Romes would have different yeast on them, but maybe.
I’m tempted to not touch the last bottle of Stayman/Rome wild batch and see if it eventually starts carbonating. But since it’s the last bottle and its good, I’m more tempted to drink it soon, just in case it does burst. Next season I’ll do more wild yeast keg batches so hopefully I’ll have enough extra bottles at this time of the year that I can afford to sacrifice one or two to see what happens. On the other hand, I’m going to let the last 5 Stayman/Winesap wild yeast bottles sit another 6 months. Since I bottled them at 1.002, I don’t see how they could get much more carbed. If one does burst I wont have lost much, and the taste can only improve from here.
So, I got some US04 yeast, and dumped a bit of maple syrup in it, and got the SG up to about 1.055. But I to an SG reading today, and it was already at 1.002. And that's after about 4 days. Now, maybe it's because I'm using pasteruized yeast, or something else, but I don't have any idea how you can let cider go for 25-30 days without it being completely fermented. Is it the honey?
Worth noting is that for this batch I added some yeast nutrient as well. I wonder if that made is work so much faster? I'm just trying to get a system in place for when I can get some fresh cider and do a 5 gallon batch. This batch was a 1 gallon batch.
So, I racked it into another one gallon bottle, and added some honey. I'm planning on watching the SG more closely this time, and trying to stop it around 1.010. We'll see how it turns out.
Brad - Its mostly the temperature. Fermentation speed increases exponentially with temp.
I brew in my basement, which is a lot cooler than the rest of the house. The first batch of the season is usually ready to crash in 8-10 days. As it gets later into the season, the basement gets colder and fermentation times get longer. The last batch of the season went well over a month before crashing
Gallon batches ferment faster than 5 gallon batches and the yeast nutrient probably speeds things up as well
I prefer a slower ferment, because its easier to manage multiple batches. I suspect it may also be easier to crash a batch that isnt fermenting so vigorously, but I'm not sure about that. I've never used yeast nutrient. The only time I've ever had a stuck fermentation was this past season on my first keg batch using 3068. It started at 1.060 and stuck at 1.030. It tasted great and my girlfriend said it was the best one yet, so at this point, getting another stuck fermentation seems more like good luck than a problem.
Last Sunday I cohosted a cider dinner with some friends . We checked out 14 liters of last season’s cider to see how they hold up over time. Twenty folks were kind enough to fill out rating sheets. About half of these are brewers and/or winemakers and I got some good feedback. Of the three tastings that I’ve done in the past six weeks, this bunch came out the best.
The juice was from three different apple pressings, made in five gallon keg batches. The juice was pressed 6-8 months ago. Most of them were kegged within a month or two after pressing, These bottles were poured off when the kegs ran out, which was 2-5 months ago, depending on the batch. Carbonation was good on all bottles. None started a new fermentation or lost fermentation, just a nice pop from the keg filling and bubbly till the last drop. They have all been sitting in closed cartons in my basement since bottling. The basement is cool and has dehumidifier but not AC. Temps usually swing from 70 to 80.
Here are the ciders with (scores – rated 1-10, with 10 highest) and [overall ranking] for top five
Stayman and Winesap apples, Pressed 10/30/08, sg 1.050, pH 3.7, ½ k meta added:
(6.56) – 3 lb Orange Blossom Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
(6.39) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Nottingham ale yeast, Raspberries in secondary, fg 1.002
(6.47) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
(6.83) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Wyeast 4184 meade yeast, fg 1.000
Stayman and Rome apples, Pressed 11/23/08, sg 1.064, pH 3.8, ½ k meta added (except wild batch):
[5] (7.40) – No sugar. Wild yeast, fg 1.014
(7.17) – 2lb Clover Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
(7.14) – 2lb Wildflower Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
[1] (8.51) – No sugar. S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
(6.88) – No sugar. US05 ale yeast, fg 1.004
York and Fuji apples, Pressed 1/5/09, sg 1.050, pH 3.9, no k meta:
(5.21) – 1 ½ lb Basswood and 1 ½ lb Clover honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.002
[3] (7.66) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Wyeast 3068 Weizen Yeast, fg 1.020
(6.45) – 3 lb Wildflower Honey, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.006
[4] (7.60) – 3 lb White Sage Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.008
[2] (7.71) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.004
My personal top five is almost identical to the consensus ratings. I would have put the Stayman/Rome, Wildflower Honey, S04 in the 3 spot instead of the 3068. The drier ciders didn’t score very well on the average, but a few people liked these a lot. It also seems that these are still improving. The Stayman/Winesap 4184 batch seemed to be the favorite of the dry cider drinkers.
The breakdown of the ratings seems to confirm the three keg rule – something dry, something sweet and something in the middle and almost everyone can find at least one or two ciders that they’d rate 8 or higher. On average, only one batch broke 8 overall (even the popular batches that had lots of 9s got low ratings from folks who liked a different style).
All the honey I used for these cysers was from Northern brewer, White Sage and Wildflower Honey worked the best overall with the apple taste. I’d use Orange Blossom again also, even thought it didn’t score as well as clover honey. The basswood batch came out really dry, I liked it better in a sweeter cider.
The Stayman/Rome batches were all cloudy when I kegged them. After they sat in the basement a few months, all batches besides the wild yeast one cleared – sort of. You can see from the pic, the first, third and sixth bottles in the front row have varying amounts of sediment in the bottom of the bottles. The sediment had the consistency of runny applesauce and was actually pretty tasty – every drop was consumed. The wild batch is the third from the right. As you can see it was still a little cloudy All of the Stayman/Rome batches looked like this when I bottled them. I’m not sure what it was that finally caused them to clear. Even though these were all really tasty, I probably wont try to save cloudy batches for summertime consumption again.
I still have one more tasting to do in August. Eight batches that I havent tasted yet, plus eleven more that are repeats. I’m starting to check out my options for juice next season. The cider mills don’t start up until mid September, but good early juice apples will be available soon. I have a friend who has a good manual apple press and I’m hoping to press a few carboy’s worth in a few weeks, just to have something in the pipeline until the big presses start up.
When I saw the thread title I thought 'ok, hooch maker here. Will we be comparing koolaid flavors here and getting recommendations on which bread yeast to use?'
Could not have been more wrong. Knew that as soon as I saw the picture.
Thanks for the info.
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On Tap: 1. Kelly R. IPA, 2. Roter Hund Hefeweizen, 3. Bud Killer Blonde, 4. Red Dog Pale, 5. Roter Hund Oktoberfest, 6. Pumpkin Ale, 7. McRed's Stout (with new nitro system and stout tap,) Cream Soda, 8. ESB # 3, & 9. Ordinary Bitter.
Hooch is my roots! - starting about a dozen, maybe fifteen years ago when a friend rented a house on a farm with a bunch of untended apple trees and a crappy hand press in the garage. We used champagne yeast and sometimes added honey. It almost always got too dry and we would backsweeten with fresh juice. There were a few lucky batches that just happened to be at the right point of fermentation at the time of a party. Mostly it was pretty hoochie tasting, but high enough alcohol content and low enough drinking standards on my part made it all work out. Thankfully, several years ago, a friend turned me on to ale yeast, which transformed the cider from a cheap fun buzz to something that my friends and I actually enjoy drinking.
Just recently I’ve been learning more about the role of nitrogen in fermentation. I think that one reason I’ve had pretty good success stopping fermentation with cold crashing and racking may be that I've never added nutrient (which is mostly nitrogen) to the cider.
It appears that while low nitrogen levels can cause some problems, overall low nitrogen makes the yeast easier to control and could be a possible avenue for home brewers to bottle carbonate sweet cider. Check out this link on the UK cider page, particularly the last few paragraphs: Nitrogen - the Forgotten Element in Cider Making
Also thanks to Elfmaze for this link to this podcast, JKS Cidermaking Podcast where Jim Koan, owner of JK Scrumpy’s who talks about the importance of limiting nitrogen in the cider making process (the interview starts at minute 3)
These two links help explain something I observed over the last few seasons - if I added enough sugar to bump the sg to 1.060 and used ale yeast or 3068 I could often get a batch of cider to stop fermenting just by racking once or twice. I originally thought perhaps the higher sg from the extra sugar made the yeast drop to the bottom where it could be siphoned off. Now I think there is a good chance that taking the cider off the lees also deprived it of nitrogen, which was a major contributing factor in causing the ferment to stop – basically inducing a stuck fermentation.
Nitrogen levels may also help explain a question from the tasting before last - why the Stayman/Rome wild yeast batch, which was cold crashed at 1.014, was still stable 8 months later, while the Stayman/Winesap wild yeast batches, cold crashed at 1.002, had started refermenting.
The difference is probably in the racking. After cold crashing the Stayman/Rome batch at 1.014, the sg stayed stable, but I racked the carboy two more times and cold crashed it a second time, trying to get it to clear. It never got very clear – but it did drop some sediment on each racking, which was probably nutrient as well as yeast. In contrast, the Stayman/Winsap batches were nice and clear after cold crashing, so these went straight into bottles from the cold crash. So they were really only racked once and may have retained more nitrogen. Usually I rack back into a secondary after the cold crash to make sure it is stable. This extra racking step also probably helps the yeast and nutrient reduction.
If one could reliably induce a stuck fermentation by removing and/or depleting the nitrogen in the cider, then it should be possible to bottle carbonate by using a champagne yeast that can survive just long enough in a low nitrogen environment to add a few psi of pressure. It appears that this may be what some of the French and British cider makers do and it would not surprise me if JKS does this also. It would take a bit of experimenting to figure out exactly when to add the champagne yeast so that there is enough nitrogen to get a little fiz, but not enough to crack a bottle.
I never understood the point of keeving apple juice before, but it makes sense if you are trying to purposely achieve a stuck fermentation. It seems to me that you can probably achieve something pretty close for a lot less work by purchasing organic (meaning no nitrogen fertilizer applied to trees) apple juice.
Sometimes the cider does get a bit of a sulfer smell after cold crashing and/or racking. Some of this may be due to nutrient depletion. Usually the smell dissipates in a month or two in the keg. If not, charging the cider with CO2 and then letting the pressure back out can scrub out most sulfur smells. That is another handy thing about having kegs for conditioning. I suppose if you wanted to bottle condition, then you would need a yeast and juice combo that does not get stinky when the nitrogen runs out.
It appears that the only way to cheaply measure nitrogen is with formal titration, which looks like a PIA to do. I’m not ready to make that leap yet, but I’ll do what I can to find out about how much fertilizer was on various batches of apples in the upcoming year and maybe try to find an all organic batch next season to see how that compares with other juice.
In the meantime, I would advise anyone who wants to cold crash, rack and/or otherwise make a sweet cider by stopping fermentation, that you probably don’t want to use extra nutrients, or else limit the amount you use. If you want to ferment completely to dryness then the nutrient could be helpful, but for sweet ciders, it is probably working against you, plus is one less thing to purchase.
CvilleKevin - Just thanks man, just thanks. Loads of great information here. I've been doing some 1 gallon experimental batches trying different yeast and sugar additions, nowhere near as planned and methodical as your testing, more like shooting in the dark. I've had mixed results, but have decided I really like cider and enjoy making it. The information in this thread, while still trying to absorb all of it, puts me years ahead of where I'd be based on my random experiments. Thanks so much for sharing.
Thanks for all the info Kevin... it has gotten me excited for this pressing season.
My question for you is simple:
How little k meta have you been able to use to stop initial (wild) fermentation?
I know this will vary based on several things...
A little background:
I will be using a mix of Jonathan and Golden Del. apples pressed late Oct.
I need to transport the unpasteurized juice back home.. a 4 hour trip. I want to produce a consistent cider (if possible), so I want to eliminate wild yeast fermentation with the k meta. I will then use the S04 ale yeast.
Also... One other option I have is to freeze the fresh pressed sweet cider b/f pasteurization. Have you thought about this to give yourself a yearround supply of sweet cider for production?
Depending on the pH of the juice, it should take between 1/16 tsp to 1/8 tsp of k-meta to knock out the wild yeast in 5 gal of fresh juice (1/4 to ½ of the recommend dose used for grape juice). That’s assuming the press uses good sanitation, good quality control on the apples, etc. If the mix is mostly Jonathan (tart, low pH) , it will be closer to 1/16 tsp, if mostly golden delicious (sweet, high pH), more like 1/8 tsp.
You could also do it by taste, setting aside a glass of the fresh juice before you add anything. Then add a little bit at a time until you can taste the difference between what is in the carboy and the untreated juice. Once you can taste a slight difference, don’t add any more.
If you pick up more than one carboy of juice, you might want to experiment with different amounts of k-meta to see what you like. Even if you use no k-meta, the S04 will overwhelm the wild yeast fairly quickly and dominate the flavor profile, so it will be pretty consistent, even though you will get some character from the wild yeast. From the tastings I’ve done, most of my brewer, winemaking and beer/wine aficionado friends like having a bit of the wild character. Most everyone else (which is the majority) prefers about a half dose of k-meta, which is enough to kill the wild yeast, plus give it a little k-meta tang at the finish.
I havent tried freezing. I don’t have the space. I’ve accidentally partially frozen a couple of batches while cold crashing, which didn’t seem to hurt it. If I had a chest freezer, I’d rather use it for slowing down the ferment on the first few batches of the season and lagering later batches. I suspect that freezing before fermentation would affect the taste. That is based on the fact that JK Scrumpy’s has built a sophisticated cold storage facility for their apples, so that they can press fresh all year round. It would be a lot easier to just press and freeze all at once, and I dont imagine they would go to the trouble and expense of cold storage unless there was a noticeable taste advantage from fresh pressed over frozen. On the other hand, it could be that freezing just kills the wild yeast, in which case this might not matter to you.
A few weekends ago we finished off another 16 liters from last season - which is about all I had on hand that was drinkable. Seventeen friends were good enough to share their feedback and rate the ciders.
On average I would say these were not quite as good as the ones from the previous tasting, but there were a few really good ones. Here are the ciders with (scores – rated 1-10, with 10 highest) and [overall ranking] for top five
The first eight ciders were all from the same pressing, which was Staymans, Empire, Golden Delicious and Granny Smith, pressed on 10/9/08. Sg was 1.042 and I didn’t check the pH on these. These got a full dose of k-meta. Four of the liters were from keg batches.
(5.78) – 1½ lb Turbinado ¾ lb Dextrose, US05 ale yeast, fg. 1.008
[3] (7.95) Basswood Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
(6.91) – 1½ lb Turbinado ¾ lb Dextrose, S23 lager yeast, fg 1.002
(6.83) – 1½ lb Turbinado ¾ lb Dextrose, Nottingham ale yeast, fg. 1.008
The basswood honey was a little strong for the first several months, but has mellowed really nicely. I thought the S23 should have got a higher score. I would have put it in the top 5. For a dry cider it had a lot of flavor, and a few people really liked it, but overall dry ciders don’t get much love
The other four liters were from experimental gallon batches, to check out some different yeasts. These yeasts all fermented very fast and came out really dry, without much flavor. Aging didn’t seem to improve them much and none scored very well:
(5.41) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Breferm lager yeast, fg 1.004
(5.65) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Lalvin 71B wine yeast, fg 1.000
(6.03) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Coopers ale yeast, fg 1.004
(4.06) – 4oz Turbinado 2oz Dextrose, Danstar Munich wheat beer yeast, fg 1.002
The last eight ciders were all repeats from previous tastings. Some have improved, others have peaked
Stayman and Winesap apples, Pressed 10/30/08, sg 1.050, pH 3.7, ½ k meta added, all from keg batches. All still improving:
[5] (7.69) – 3 lb Orange Blossom Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
(7.24) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, Nottingham ale yeast, Raspberries in secondary, fg 1.002
[1] (8.14) – 1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.006
Stayman and Rome apples, Pressed 11/23/08. sg 1.064, pH 3.8, ½ k meta added. All still improving
[2] (8.12) – 2lb Clover Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
[4] (7.85) – 2lb Wildflower Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.010
York and Fuji apples, Pressed 1/5/09 sg 1.050, pH 3.9, no k meta:
3 lb Wildflower Honey, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.006
3 lb White Sage Honey, S04 ale yeast, fg 1.008
1 lb Turbinado ½ lb Dextrose, US05 ale yeast, fg 1.004
The York/Fuji batches have definitely peaked and have picked up just a tad of a vinegar taste. We didn’t get around to scoring them as it was getting late by the time we tasted these and there were just a handful of folks left. The one with the white sage honey was the only one that was still fairly drinkable, but still not as good as last month (when two of these were in the top five). These tasted great up through mid July, so six months seems like the limit of how long they will keep with no k-meta.
I still have the five kegs of Jonathan juice that I let go all the way dry at the beginning of last season. These are just now starting to get drinkable. “Sippable” is probably a better word. They sorta work as a dry white wine with a nice finish, and I know a few folks who I think will really like these, but I doubt they would get much interest if I tapped them at a party. We’ll see I guess. Hopefully they continue to improve.
The last two carboys of York/Fuji are finally clearing, but unfortunately also picking up a bit of vinegar taste. The S23 batch has a great apple finish which is almost worth putting up with the initial taste. The wild yeast batch tastes kinda boring, so I’ll probably give it to a friend to make vinegar. I’ll try to sweeten up the S23 batch first, but will probably give that one away as well
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