My guess is that the taste threshold for k-meta in cider is about a third of what it is for wine. Probably less. I can taste a third of the recommended (1/4tsp in 5 gal) dose in fresh pressed juice and my taste buds are not all that. Probably because cider has a different binding profile to the k-meta than does grape juice and the free S02 is what causes the taste. Or maybe it is easier to taste the bisulfate ions in apple juice.
Felix - Do any of your wine classes have a lab and does it have a way to measure free S02? Can you still get fresh apple juice in BC? It would be interesting to measure grape and apple juice side by side and see how much k-meta it takes to get free S02. Apple juice has less sugar and more ascorbic acid than grape juice. I’m sure there are other differences as well.
Halfway through this cider season I cut back on the k-meta. I made 10 keg batches with a little less than half the recommended k-meta dose (1/8 tsp in 6 gallons). All three cysers and two of the ale yeast ciders were ready to drink after cold crashing (3-4 weeks after pressing and pitching yeast). The others still had a little of the bite that I attribute to the k-meta and took a month or so extra to mellow out. Overall, great taste and less wait to be drinkable. I saved a couple liters from each batch to see how they hold up over time and will check these out again in June and Sept.
For the last 7 keg batches of the season, I added no k-meta at all. Five of these I crashed at 1.006 or higher and they were all good enough to drink as soon as they were cold crashed (4 weeks after pressing), although I havent kegged them yet. A couple got a little dryer than I like so I’m going to let these age a bit. I’ll save a few liters of all of these to see how they hold up over time.
At this point, I’m planning on not using any k-meta before fermentation for keg batches next season – just pitch the yeast as soon as I get the juice home. That will save a step and it seems to have a positive impact on the taste, at least for the first several months. Depending on how these kegs keep over time, I might add a bit of k-meta for long term storage, but I’m hoping they will last till next season with no additives.
I would not recommend skipping the k-meta unless you are sure the press you are using has good sanitation practices and you know the juice is fresh. If any doubts, or if the juice tastes bland, use a third or half the recommended dose. The place I get my juice keeps their press and apple handling equipment very clean and I show up early on pressing days so the juice goes right from the press to my carboys. I suppose that there is always a risk of getting a bug and having to toss a batch, but so far so good.
that is actually a great idea...
grape and apple juice are quite different in their biochemistry... for exemple, tartaric acid is specific to grapes and is present in big proportions to other fruit acids like ascorbic, malic, citric, etc
also, some phenolics play a big role in the binding of bisulphite ions... all in all i suspect white wine production to be closer to ciders than red wines, but that remains to be seen...
There is a lab part to my course, but i will probably prefer doing those kinds of trials with apple juice at the winery im working at. I'm not alone in these classes and schedules are tight....especially since next lab session is actually the final exam!!!
so yeah i will get back to you guys with this experiment asap.
__________________ Secondary: Melissa's English Bitter Ale:::coopers Bitter LME + pale DME + dark molasses:::5 gallons Drinking: Cooper's Stout + white honey + buckwheat honey + raw sugar ::: 5 Gallons ...almost all gone... Next: Nut Brown Ale
Come in beautiful Similkameen Valley and visit the winery i work at! www.orofinovineyards.com
bear with me! We're buzy in the vineyard this week, but on Monday i'll be back in the cellar (we'll be bottling the magnums!mmmmmmmh) so i'll try the experiments sometime in the day....
__________________ Secondary: Melissa's English Bitter Ale:::coopers Bitter LME + pale DME + dark molasses:::5 gallons Drinking: Cooper's Stout + white honey + buckwheat honey + raw sugar ::: 5 Gallons ...almost all gone... Next: Nut Brown Ale
Come in beautiful Similkameen Valley and visit the winery i work at! www.orofinovineyards.com
I havent used any yeast nutrients. I did a little bit of research on them last year and they seemed to be mostly for problems that I havent experienced (slow or stuck fermentations, rotten egg smell, etc). Some people swear by them though, so I suspect its a function of whatever juice you are starting with. Maybe if I found some great tasting juice that I couldnt get to ferment out, I would try it, but for now I'm sticking with the minimalist approach.
The last pressing of the season has almost all been kegged. It’s a mix of Yorks and Fujis, with a nice midrange flavor, not very tart, but a nice finish. SG 1.050 and pH 3.9. Pressed on Jan 5th, unpasteurized. I didn’t add any k-meta to these batches and cold crashed about a month later. I wasn’t as diligent on checking the SGs on these as I should have been and let several of them get too dry, but they all should be good in a few months.
42 gallons, seven keg batches, From left to right (on the back shelf):
S23 lager yeast, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. I let this one go a little too far before crashing – all the way down to 1.000, which is too dry for my taste, but it has a good fruit finish and decent complexity, so it should be good in a few months
Wild yeast, no extra sugar. Crashed at 1.004. I might have let this one go too far also. It’s a little sour and lacking in body, but I’m hoping a few months of aging will shape it up.
S04 ale yeast, with 3lbs of white sage honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed at 1.008. This one is currently tapped and in the fridge. Great smell, taste and body, with just a hint of the honey taste. Cold crashing got it nice and clear. This one was very drinkable within about a month from pressing
S04 ale yeast, with 1 ½ lbs of basswood honey and 1 ½ lbs of clover honey. to boost SG to 1.065. The mix of basswood to clover worked out well. I tried just basswood honey on an earlier batch and found it a bit overpowering. I tasted it at 3 weeks and it was at 1.020 and really good. I crashed this batch a little too late though, at 1.002. The taste is good, though on the dry side, but lacking body. Should improve with age.
US05 ale yeast with 3lbs of wildflower honey to boost SG to 1.065. Crashed at 1.006. It tastes good, but is still a little funky smelling so I’m letting it sit for a while to see if it clears up.
US05 ale yeast, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. Crashed at 1.004. Also currently tapped and in the fridge. Its nice and light, but not too dry, and makes a good counterpart to the S04 white sage batch. It was also very drinkable within about a month from pressing, although it didn’t clear quite as well from the cold crash as did the cysers.
Not shown (burp) – Wyeast 3068, with 18oz turbinado and 9 oz dextrose, to bump SG to 1.060. I racked this at 1.020 to slow the ferment down a little, which ended up stopping it. I still continued to get bubbles but the SG didn’t change. This is my girlfriend’s favorite and was one of the crowd favorites at the last party. It’s a very different taste than the ale yeast batches, lots of body and a bit of an orange juicy sort of taste with a sour finish. I wasn’t all that crazy about it myself, but it was the first keg to float so I wont argue. You do have to use a blowoff tube, because the 3068 makes soapy bubbles that will gum up your airlock otherwise.
I saved two liters of the 3068 batch and will try to save a couple of liters of the others, to see how they hold up over time without any k-meta.
Here is a picture of the York and Fuji batches, a couple of weeks after pressing. They started out as a dark chocolate brown color, but by the time of the photo the fermentation had lightened them up considerably
On the left back wall, next to the fridge, are five batches that were made from a mix of Staymans and Romes. The juice was pressed on November 24 and not very tart, but had an interesting spicy taste. Starting SG was 1.064! pH 3.8. I added half the recommended dose of k-meta to these (except for the wild batch) - 1/8 tsp in 6 gallons. As you can see, they did not clear up nearly as much as the other batches during cold crashing and were still dropping a lot of sediment in the secondaries. Perhaps they would have cleared eventually, but they tasted really good and so we drank ‘em cloudy. They are from left to right:
Wild yeast, no extra sugar. Crashed at 1.014. This was my first attempt at doing a wild fermented keg batch and overall one of the best wild batches I did this year. Even though the final SG was on the high side, it tasted dry with a nice, but not overwhelming sour note and a nice body and finish
S04 ale yeast, with 2lbs of wildflower honey to boost SG to 1.072. Crashed at 1.012. This was very, very good. I didn’t keg it until two months after crashing, by which time SG had dropped to 1.010. The honey gave it a nice smell and body, but not overpowering in the taste.
S04 ale yeast, with no additional sugar or honey. Crashed at 1.010. It had just a bit of the k-meta tang right after crashing, but it faded within a month. By the time I kegged it, two months later, it was outstanding. This was my favorite of the five Stayman/Rome batches.
US05 ale yeast, with no additional sugar or honey. Crashed at 1.006. The SG dropped a little more over the next two months to 1.004 by the time I kegged it. Nice and dry but has a bit of a caramel smell that hasn’t dissipated yet, so it’s the only keg of this batch which hasn’t been consumed yet. I’ve gotten this smell before and it usually goes away after a couple of months.
S04 ale yeast, with with 2lbs of clover honey to boost SG to 1.072. Crashed at 1.010, kegged a couple months later. Also very good. Not quite as good as the wildflower honey IMHO, but no complaints.
I saved two liters of each of these so I can check out how they hold up with aging
CvilleKevin - For your cider and cyser do you only use only juice + sweetener or do you use any specialty grains. If you use a special recipe, is it posted here somewhere. Also, I called Harry's Whole Foods in Roswell, GA today and they said that they would juice any apples that I want. So you can get fresh juice any time, I have not tried it yet though.
I Just made 3 gallons of it. They have aged for a little over a month. 7.2% ABV. Absolutely deliciousness. Nottingham Yeast with the specified corn sugar to organic sugar ratio. Very Very Clear. I'm really pleased
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