Did a batch of Ed Worts Apfelwein 4 weeks ago, fermented out to .993 so I was going to bottle tonight BUT it has quite a weird taste, almost plastic like, odd smell too. How normal is this for a young cider? Dont want to bottle if the batch has gone bad somehow, I guess I could just leave in secondary and wait a month? There is about a 1/2 " yeast cake on the bottom of the carboy and would not want to contribute to more off flavors. Any help would be greatly appreciated, I'm all set to go here.
Off flavor
- Thread starter joer189
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
I would leave it alone for a few more months. The yeast cake is not or will not contribute off flavors to it.
Let me share my experience with serving young apfelwien to people or at least ATTEMPTING to.
Personally, when young it tastes like what I imagine my pee tastes like after a trip to the cider mill, mixed with kerosene....Especially when you know how awesome it is when it is matured. After you taste your first year old bottle, you never think twice about making it and socking it away ever again.
I would only bring a little bit for folks to taste, and bring something else. And not be too hurt if folks don't like it......They will down the line.
I don't even serve mine any more until it's close to a year...but it is a matter of taste...
Let me share my experience with serving young apfelwien to people or at least ATTEMPTING to.
Personally, when young it tastes like what I imagine my pee tastes like after a trip to the cider mill, mixed with kerosene....Especially when you know how awesome it is when it is matured. After you taste your first year old bottle, you never think twice about making it and socking it away ever again.
I would only bring a little bit for folks to taste, and bring something else. And not be too hurt if folks don't like it......They will down the line.
I don't even serve mine any more until it's close to a year...but it is a matter of taste...
LOLCampFireWine
Well-Known Member
I read somewhere on one of the trips around the world on the internet that a plastic taste can be introduced from using improper cleaners or sanitizers on the plastic carboys.
Mr_fleabite
Well-Known Member
I'm inclined to disagree with the statement that the yeast cake will not contribute to off flavors. While one's experience may be to the contrary, wine or cider in contact with the lees (yeast cake) for long periods of time (like 3 month or more) runs the possibility of picking up off flavors if not properly managed.
If left alone to sit undisturbed, the yeast will begin to perform "autolysis" (the process by which the yeast eat each other). When this process starts the yeast make different enzymes to break each other down into digestible nutrients, this in turn creates a cascade of chemical reactions and the off flavors and/or smells start (namely hydrogen sulfide).
With white wines (which cider seems closer to in processes to me) left on the lees frequent stirring is used to redistribute that cake back into the barrel or carboy in our case(1/week or when the cake forms again). This prevents the autolysis process from happening en mass on the bottom and making those god awful flavors and smells. However after a stirring or two or three, the wine is eventually racked off of each successive yeast cake. It's important to note that when the barrels or in our case carboy is stirred every effort is made to do it without any aeration.
IMHO I wouldn’t let it sit on the lees for months on end.
If left alone to sit undisturbed, the yeast will begin to perform "autolysis" (the process by which the yeast eat each other). When this process starts the yeast make different enzymes to break each other down into digestible nutrients, this in turn creates a cascade of chemical reactions and the off flavors and/or smells start (namely hydrogen sulfide).
With white wines (which cider seems closer to in processes to me) left on the lees frequent stirring is used to redistribute that cake back into the barrel or carboy in our case(1/week or when the cake forms again). This prevents the autolysis process from happening en mass on the bottom and making those god awful flavors and smells. However after a stirring or two or three, the wine is eventually racked off of each successive yeast cake. It's important to note that when the barrels or in our case carboy is stirred every effort is made to do it without any aeration.
IMHO I wouldn’t let it sit on the lees for months on end.
Thanks for the input. I would hate to do all this work and have sub optimal results. So do we have any generally agreed upon timelines. From what I have read and learned from this incredibly helpful site I'm thinking of doing the following for my next 2 batches for which I have fresh pressed juice frozen and waiting for.
1. Primary for up to 4 weeks / until SG is stable for 3 days - then rack to secondary - is this too long and at risk of autolysis?
2. Secondary for 3 months
3. Taste, sweeten/add acid if needed
4. Bottle with priming sugar
5. Age 3-9 months as needed
6.Enjoy!
1. Primary for up to 4 weeks / until SG is stable for 3 days - then rack to secondary - is this too long and at risk of autolysis?
2. Secondary for 3 months
3. Taste, sweeten/add acid if needed
4. Bottle with priming sugar
5. Age 3-9 months as needed
6.Enjoy!
I have read an awful lot about autolysis and off flavors, but haven't ever experienced them from leaving wine on the yeast lees for extended periods of time. I have experienced off flavors from racking too early - and not letting the yeast clean up after themselves....
The reading I have done points to autolysis problems being more of a problem with commercial brewing - where you have a 5,000 gallon brew tun - with a sharply pointed cone "Collector" on the bottom that collects the yeast lees.... Apparently, the pressure can be high enough to rupture the yeast cells - and the associated weird/nasty flavors....
The other commercial brew "Autolysis" problem could also be from getting too hot during brewing from the heat the yeast give off - and killing the yeast... That also tastes horrible.....
Neither of those are problems your average home brewer is likely to encounter in a 5 or 6.5 gallon bucket or carboy..... We don't generate enough heat or pressure....
If you want a good dry cider - you may be best off following Revvy's plan - Primary fermentation for 3-5 months till it's spectacular and clear, then bottle and let it sit a while... Plan on drinking next year this time.
Thanks
The reading I have done points to autolysis problems being more of a problem with commercial brewing - where you have a 5,000 gallon brew tun - with a sharply pointed cone "Collector" on the bottom that collects the yeast lees.... Apparently, the pressure can be high enough to rupture the yeast cells - and the associated weird/nasty flavors....
The other commercial brew "Autolysis" problem could also be from getting too hot during brewing from the heat the yeast give off - and killing the yeast... That also tastes horrible.....
Neither of those are problems your average home brewer is likely to encounter in a 5 or 6.5 gallon bucket or carboy..... We don't generate enough heat or pressure....
If you want a good dry cider - you may be best off following Revvy's plan - Primary fermentation for 3-5 months till it's spectacular and clear, then bottle and let it sit a while... Plan on drinking next year this time.
Thanks
so Revvy goes in promary for 3-5 months, then bottles, no other rackings? I suer like the sound of that for saving time. If I am reading this correctly, I may be inclined to try that for my next batch adn see how it goes.
1. That's fine. I do believe in autolysis, and wine lees taste really bad, so I rack whenever I have lees 1/4" or thicker, after 45-60 days.
2. That's fine.
3. Don't sweeten unless you like bottle bombs. You will have to either stabilize and sweeten and then can't bottle carb (so the yeast can't eat the sugar) or pasteurize it in the bottle after it's carbed up. There is a sticky on how to do this- to me, it's a big risk of bottle bombs if you don't know what you're doing.
4. Yes.
5. Yep.
6. Yep!
so Revvy goes in promary for 3-5 months, then bottles, no other rackings? I suer like the sound of that for saving time. If I am reading this correctly, I may be inclined to try that for my next batch adn see how it goes.
