Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > Minimum Cider PH with Ale yeast
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-27-2012, 09:21 AM   #1
Zen_Brew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,921
Liked 23 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default Minimum Cider PH with Ale yeast

I have a question. My wife and I have been doing some playing around with cider for the last several months and have had some decent results using English Cider yeast. After reading much of CvilleKevin's threads on using ale yeasts I decided to do some experimenting.

We made up a batch of mixed fresh pressed unpasteurized cider with a brix of 13 and split it in to (2) 3 gallon carboys and added 3 campden tablets to each carboy. We waited 48 hours and then added our yeasts, and 1/2 tsp Fermaid K and 1/4 tsp wyeast nutrient to each carboy. Measured PH is 3.3 with a Milwaukee PH meter. Temp 65 degrees F

In one of the carboys we put one 5 gm pack of Nottingham rehydrated in 93 degree water with Go Ferm.

In the other carboy we pitched a single Wyeast 1098 smack pack that was 2 weeks after package date about 20 mins after smacking it.

The Nottingham took over 48 hours till the gravity started dropping, and the Wyeast 1098 gravity has not dropped at all and it's been 4 days. I am experienced with yeasts as I homebrew frequently, and I am surprised at the delay on the Notty and lack of fermentation with the Wyeast 1098. These are only 3 gallon batches.

I am curious if the 3.3 PH is causing the issues as this is well below the typical PH's encountered in beer brewing. I have searched, but been unable to find a conclusive answer in if wyeast 1098 will ferment at that low a PH.

I'd appreciate anyone who has any thoughts or experience in this area.

__________________
Primary: German Hef, Belgian IPA, Scottish 80, Belgian Dubbel
On Tap: Oatmeal Stout, Vanilla Oatmeal Stout, Belgian Dark Strong, Munich Dunkel, Dunkel Weizen, Oktoberfest, Bock, IPA, Black IPA, English IPA, Pale Ale

Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Using your senses to look for reality is awareness.

"One time I was so desperate for a beer I snuck into the football stadium and ate the dirt under the bleachers." Homer Simpson

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hoppiness
Zen_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 07:27 PM   #2
Zen_Brew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,921
Liked 23 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Well it appears no-one has a firm answer on this one. As it ws getting to be way too many days without ferment I made up a re-hydrated batch of Lalvin D47 a couple days ago and pitched that. I had fermentation within 18 hours. Not sure if it is all the D47, or if some of the Wyeast 1098 kicked in, but at least it is moving along now.

__________________
Primary: German Hef, Belgian IPA, Scottish 80, Belgian Dubbel
On Tap: Oatmeal Stout, Vanilla Oatmeal Stout, Belgian Dark Strong, Munich Dunkel, Dunkel Weizen, Oktoberfest, Bock, IPA, Black IPA, English IPA, Pale Ale

Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Using your senses to look for reality is awareness.

"One time I was so desperate for a beer I snuck into the football stadium and ate the dirt under the bleachers." Homer Simpson

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hoppiness
Zen_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-29-2012, 10:29 PM   #3
gregbathurst
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 852
Liked 31 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

3.3 is actually a good pH for cider, pretty much where you want it to be. The pH rises during fermentation and if you get a MLF secondary fermentation it will rise even more. It could get as high as 3.6-3.7 after secondary, so 3.3 is a pretty good place to start.

__________________
gregbathurst is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2012, 07:30 AM   #4
Zen_Brew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,921
Liked 23 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Thanx gregbathurst.

I have done a few ciders with English Cider yeast and I agree a PH of 3.3 worked nicely. I was curious why the Wyeast 1098 did not seem to work at that PH though, and the Nottingham yeast was slow to start and sluggish. Beer typically starts around PH 5.0 and will lower PH as it ferments to around 4 ish. I was wondering if the 3.3 was too low to keep the beer yeast happy.

__________________
Primary: German Hef, Belgian IPA, Scottish 80, Belgian Dubbel
On Tap: Oatmeal Stout, Vanilla Oatmeal Stout, Belgian Dark Strong, Munich Dunkel, Dunkel Weizen, Oktoberfest, Bock, IPA, Black IPA, English IPA, Pale Ale

Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Using your senses to look for reality is awareness.

"One time I was so desperate for a beer I snuck into the football stadium and ate the dirt under the bleachers." Homer Simpson

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hoppiness
Zen_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2012, 07:29 PM   #5
gregbathurst
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 852
Liked 31 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

I don't think the pH would be your problem. Any yeast should be happy at 3.3. Perhaps it was just a bad batch of yeast, or not stored well. If sg still isn't moving pitch a new yeast.

__________________
gregbathurst is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2012, 07:39 PM   #6
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 62,848
Liked 4934 Times on 3576 Posts
Likes Given: 994

Default

I wonder if ale yeast is just far less tolerant of sulfites than wine yeast?

__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006

Find me on facebook: Lorena Evans
But I'm pretty boring so don't expect much!
https://www.facebook.com/lorena.t.evans
Yooper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-30-2012, 07:55 PM   #7
Zen_Brew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,921
Liked 23 Times on 23 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

Thanx for the input Yoop. The sulfites are also a good possibility that I hadn't thought of. Obviously CvilleKevin has had pretty good luck with beer yeasts so I know it is doable. There is just not as much good documentation out there on cider as there is on beer yet. Much of the homebrewer community is still on the steeper part of the learning curve on cider I think.

I got the 1098 from a very reputable homebrew store that takes care of their yeast, but I have also considered the possibility it was a bad smack pack. That is the downside of not proofing the yeast. I just trusted that a good smack pack could easily handle 3 gallons of a mid gravity ferment.

__________________
Primary: German Hef, Belgian IPA, Scottish 80, Belgian Dubbel
On Tap: Oatmeal Stout, Vanilla Oatmeal Stout, Belgian Dark Strong, Munich Dunkel, Dunkel Weizen, Oktoberfest, Bock, IPA, Black IPA, English IPA, Pale Ale

Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Using your senses to look for reality is awareness.

"One time I was so desperate for a beer I snuck into the football stadium and ate the dirt under the bleachers." Homer Simpson

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hoppiness
Zen_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-04-2013, 03:50 PM   #8
FreeTheHops
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2
Default

I know this is almost a year later, but I stumbled across this thread trying to find anyone else who used 1098 for cider. I used it and it has worked just fine. It's slowing down a bit after 12 days (OG was 1.070, now sitting at 1.046) and still has a ways to go, but I experienced a good solid fermentation after 3 days. A few questions for you:

How long did you give the smack pack to activate before pitching?
Was it completely swollen like a tight balloon?

Did you use any yeast nutrient?

Did you use any sulfites before pitching?

I plan on letting mine go for at least two to three more weeks in primary before doing anything, though it's very delicious and drinkable now. A bit sweet but at roughly 3.5% abv it's very nice. I would prefer it finish out just below 8% ideally.

__________________
FreeTheHops is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cider-Yeast Starter Question - How much cider/volume? brewinginct Cider Forum 11 10-25-2013 06:25 AM
Minimum size test tube for yeast banking???? schupaul General Techniques 12 01-29-2013 03:42 PM
topping off cider in secondary with another fermented cider with different yeast? porky_pine Cider Forum 1 11-20-2012 12:13 AM
Wild yeast cider, tastes awesome, 7% ABV, better than "proper" cider yeast! markowe Cider Forum 14 10-21-2012 08:47 PM
Minimum yeast starter for harvested yeast chuckda4th Fermentation & Yeast 2 07-20-2012 06:31 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS