Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > Is leaving some cider in the primary after bottling bad?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-06-2011, 02:08 AM   #1
lukerohde
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 7
Default Is leaving some cider in the primary after bottling bad?

When bottling my cider (FG 1.000) I ran out of bottles and saw this as an opportunity to flavour the remaining third and try racking. It was v/clear and light yellow after being a month in the primary. I got no OG measurement (I was abroad) but it has serious kick. My wife added 1kg of sugar and champagne yeast to sweet ripe apples.

I added some boiled cinnamon and clove then left it for a day while I got around to purchasing a second carboy. It occurred to me that this may have been bad when the cider turned brown and, I swear, developed a heavier mouth feel. More change than I expected from cinnamon/clove. I suspect drawing in oxygen through my water lock as I bottled may have started it turning to vinegar. Could this or anything else bad happen so quick? (we used apples from our tree with no potassium metabisulphate)

To rescue the situation, I racked the 5 litres to a smaller carboy, begrudgingly adding half a tablet of potassium metabisulphate to kill off anything bad and added a small amount of brown sugar to initiate a small secondary ferment to push the O2 out of the head. I used brown sugar because i figured the caramel would go well with the cinnamon. I also decided to back-sweeten with a small amount of splenda (to taste). The contents of my glass carboy looks thick, cloudy and dark. It concerns me.

Were these measures appropriate? How long should I expect the secondary ferment and clearing to take?
TIA, Luke

__________________

Last edited by lukerohde; 04-06-2011 at 02:14 AM. Reason: typo
lukerohde is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 02:53 AM   #2
oldmate
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 869
Liked 16 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Over the period of a day.. I doubt anything has that much power to change it like you said. Maybe when you poured in the cinnamon tea, it kicked up some of the lees? What does it taste like now?

- Also, I don't understand what you mean by bottle? You say you bottle before you racked? Or do you mean that you bottled the majority of the cider, then left 5 L in the carboy and racked it over?

__________________
Primary: Cherry Melomel

Secondary:

Bottled: JAOM, Amber Ale
oldmate is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 02:55 AM   #3
gregbathurst
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 850
Liked 30 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukerohde View Post
When bottling my cider (FG 1.000) I ran out of bottles and saw this as an opportunity to flavour the remaining third and try racking. It was v/clear and light yellow after being a month in the primary. I got no OG measurement (I was abroad) but it has serious kick. My wife added 1kg of sugar and champagne yeast to sweet ripe apples.

I added some boiled cinnamon and clove then left it for a day while I got around to purchasing a second carboy. It occurred to me that this may have been bad when the cider turned brown and, I swear, developed a heavier mouth feel. More change than I expected from cinnamon/clove. I suspect drawing in oxygen through my water lock as I bottled may have started it turning to vinegar. Could this or anything else bad happen so quick? (we used apples from our tree with no potassium metabisulphate)

To rescue the situation, I racked the 5 litres to a smaller carboy, begrudgingly adding half a tablet of potassium metabisulphate to kill off anything bad and added a small amount of brown sugar to initiate a small secondary ferment to push the O2 out of the head. I used brown sugar because i figured the caramel would go well with the cinnamon. I also decided to back-sweeten with a small amount of splenda (to taste). The contents of my glass carboy looks thick, cloudy and dark. It concerns me.

Were these measures appropriate? How long should I expect the secondary ferment and clearing to take?
TIA, Luke
Luke, in the USA brown sugar is what we would call raw sugar, not caramelised sugar.

If the flavour is ok you shouldn't worry, but if it has any odour of vinegar or nail polish remover you should (worry). What you have done sounds fine.You should probably leave it another month to clear at least.

Greg
__________________
gregbathurst is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 04:41 AM   #4
lukerohde
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 7
Default

I think in gently adding my cinnamon and clove solution, I definitely stirred up some lees. There is a slight nail polish remover taste - I put that down to strength but is that symptomatic of something else? At any rate, the nail polish remover taste was present in the cider that I bottled, and not a result of leaving the solution exposed to air for a day. The browning probably due to stirring up the lees and adding cinnamon.

Raw sugar in Australia is sold as large crystals where as brown sugar is very fine (and sticky). I read elsewhere that brown sugar (not raw) has a caramel taste when sweetening cider. I'd observed similar when caramelising fruit so took it to be true. At worse it contributes no flavour and serves to rekindle fermentation, if possible with my cider.

I'll leave it for a month before bottling and see how it goes. By then it will be clearly vinegar or cider What is it the nail polish remover taste?

__________________
lukerohde is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 04:54 AM   #5
oldmate
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 869
Liked 16 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

The nail polish remover taste is ethyl acetate, reminiscent to acetone which is what nail polish remover is made of. I'm sorry to say, but I doubt it will get any better. It's a sign of oxidation and it may be on it's way to vinegar. I have no idea how you can remove it or stop it, I've heard of people blending it or using campden to introduce sulphur to bind to it and release it as a gas. You might need to do some research on this

__________________
Primary: Cherry Melomel

Secondary:

Bottled: JAOM, Amber Ale
oldmate is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 06:40 AM   #6
gregbathurst
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 850
Liked 30 Times on 28 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukerohde View Post
I think in gently adding my cinnamon and clove solution, I definitely stirred up some lees. There is a slight nail polish remover taste - I put that down to strength but is that symptomatic of something else? At any rate, the nail polish remover taste was present in the cider that I bottled, and not a result of leaving the solution exposed to air for a day. The browning probably due to stirring up the lees and adding cinnamon.

Raw sugar in Australia is sold as large crystals where as brown sugar is very fine (and sticky). I read elsewhere that brown sugar (not raw) has a caramel taste when sweetening cider. I'd observed similar when caramelising fruit so took it to be true. At worse it contributes no flavour and serves to rekindle fermentation, if possible with my cider.

I'll leave it for a month before bottling and see how it goes. By then it will be clearly vinegar or cider What is it the nail polish remover taste?
Although its hard to say without smelling it myself, the nail polish remover smell is usually acetaldehyde, not ethyl acetate. Ethyl acetate is part of the vinegar smell. Acetaldehyde is in sherry specifically fino sherry which is one way to get to know the smell. Whichever isn't really important because they both come as a result of too much air contact, usually too much headspace, and are both hard to get rid of, pretty much impossible. Part of the home winemaking education, next time make sure to keep air away, glass carboys are the best way, filled to the top.

When I first started reading recipes on this forum I wondered about all the brown sugar used, seemed pretty over the top to me. Then I realised brown sugar in the USA is quite a different product so be careful about following recipes from another country, where ingredients can be quite different to what you are used to. Brown sugar in the US is much less strong in flavour, where they say brown sugar substitute raw sugar.

Greg
__________________
gregbathurst is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 11:02 PM   #7
lukerohde
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 7
Default

Can too much headspace in the primary be an issue? Our primary is 35L but I think we only had around 20L of juice from our apple tree. I figured that once the primary ferment starts, it pushes the O2 out with CO2 and air contact would cease to be a problem.

__________________
lukerohde is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2011, 11:17 PM   #8
oldmate
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 869
Liked 16 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

How long was it in primary for? I haven't heard of any oxidation issues in a primary unless it has been in the for months on end. Oxidation is usually a problem when aging in a secondary.

You could always let this become vinegar naturally if it doesn't turn out any good, it'll be the best vinegar you've ever had, just keep it away from the rest of your brewing equipment.

__________________
Primary: Cherry Melomel

Secondary:

Bottled: JAOM, Amber Ale
oldmate is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-07-2011, 04:47 AM   #9
lukerohde
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 7
Default

Thanks for the reassurance, it was only in the primary for a month. But fermentation had well and truly panned out, so I added a little sugar to the secondary kick start a secondary ferment and hopefully push out any O2. Its been two days and no bubbling yet... Anything could happen so this is all just speculation from here on out so I'll just wait and see... Oldmate, you do know how to look on the bright side

__________________
lukerohde is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bottling my Cider avsfan2020 Cider Forum 3 05-09-2010 06:35 AM
Bottling Cider backi00 Cider Forum 4 11-20-2009 10:15 PM
Cider Bottling jcannon46609 Cider Forum 1 10-10-2009 09:14 PM
Cider in primary abbeyroadhelp Cider Forum 2 02-28-2009 09:50 PM
Rack cider after 2 weeks in primary? britishbloke Cider Forum 10 10-28-2006 10:17 PM