Kegconnection Complete Starter Kit and More Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > idea

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-07-2011, 07:02 AM   #1
shafferpilot
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
shafferpilot's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 1,639
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default idea

Ok, as a long time beer brewing member of this forum, I have absolutely no doubt that this has been both brought up and discussed before. As usual, I can't get the search to find the info I am looking for.

I would like to get a bunch of apples, press them, strain the juice, boil the juice down to elevate the sugar and flavor concentration. Use a very low tolerance, low attenuation yeast to ferment it, so the yeast poops out while leaving a reasonably predictable amount of leftover sugar.

This way, there is no need to backsweeten with nasty fake sugar products, bleh.
There is no fear of bottle bombs.
The apple flavor is not secondary to tart dry-ness.
Extreme apple flavor compared to boosting alcohol with corn sugar.

So, what makes this not work? What is the lowest tolerance, lowest attenuating yeast? Does boiling apple juice screw it up?

__________________

A great man knows that he knows NOTHING

shafferpilot is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-07-2011, 07:10 AM   #2
oldmate
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 869
Liked 16 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Instead of boiling I would freeze it instead, pretty much the same concept. Boiling will make it cloudy by setting in pectins.

The only thing I can think of is that you're going to need a hell of a lot of juice, get the SG of the juice to around 1.100 and then ferment with an ale yeast and hope it doesn't chew through it.

__________________
Primary: Cherry Melomel

Secondary:

Bottled: JAOM, Amber Ale
oldmate is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-07-2011, 08:38 AM   #3
dinnerstick
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: utrecht, netherlands
Posts: 1,908
Liked 212 Times on 161 Posts
Likes Given: 21

Default

agree with above. although i have never done it, i can't imagine that boiling the juice for long enough to concentrate it significantly is going to do the flavor much justice. freeze concentrating is a proven strategy in making apple icewines, has been on my to-try list for a while now... tiny european freezer bedamned

__________________
dinnerstick is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 11:42 AM   #4
smyrnaquince
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Concord, MA
Posts: 565
Liked 18 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

I think the consensus is that the sugars in apple juice are 100% fermentable, so any yeast eat all the sugar and take the cider dry. The only possibility with your method would be to concentrate enough sugars that the alcohol produced would exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast. In this case, you would certainly have wine and not cider.

__________________
smyrnaquince is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 03:12 PM   #5
shafferpilot
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
shafferpilot's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 1,639
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smyrnaquince View Post
I think the consensus is that the sugars in apple juice are 100% fermentable, so any yeast eat all the sugar and take the cider dry. The only possibility with your method would be to concentrate enough sugars that the alcohol produced would exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast. In this case, you would certainly have wine and not cider.
And THAT is why I want the lowest alcohol tolerant yeast available... I've been thinking about this and I think the trick might be to start with regular cider and then make some super concentrated apple juice to add during fermentation, keeping the SG around 1.015 until the yeast poop out.... thoughts?

I'm gonna experiment with boiling a gallon of store bought cider and see just what happens to the flavor/color.
__________________

A great man knows that he knows NOTHING

shafferpilot is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 03:19 PM   #6
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 60,355
Liked 4279 Times on 3118 Posts
Likes Given: 825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shafferpilot View Post
And THAT is why I want the lowest alcohol tolerant yeast available... I've been thinking about this and I think the trick might be to start with regular cider and then make some super concentrated apple juice to add during fermentation, keeping the SG around 1.015 until the yeast poop out.... thoughts?

I'm gonna experiment with boiling a gallon of store bought cider and see just what happens to the flavor/color.
That'll work, but even the lowest alcohol tolerant strains will easily go up past 12% with apple juice. Yeast LOVE apples and it'll ferment as easily as a simple sugar. Then you'd have a super "hot" apple wine that will take a couple of years to mellow! I make apple wine at about 12.5%, but I boost the fermentables with regular sugar. My apples tend to be 1.040-1.050 without the sugar added.
__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006
Yooper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 03:24 PM   #7
shafferpilot
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
shafferpilot's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 1,639
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Any specific strain come to mind Yoop?

__________________

A great man knows that he knows NOTHING

shafferpilot is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 03:41 PM   #8
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 60,355
Liked 4279 Times on 3118 Posts
Likes Given: 825

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shafferpilot View Post
Any specific strain come to mind Yoop?
Not really. I have found that ale yeast strains really don't attenuate less than wine strains with apples, although you may retain some more fruitiness with some of the ale strains. There is a wine yeast strain that metabolizes more malic acid than others, leaving the "tartness" of the apples "softer", if that makes sense. It's Norbonne, Lalvin's 71B-1122. Then you don't even risk spontaneous MLF as easily, if my memory serves right. Of course, some cider makers do MLF or at least don't prevent it.

You know what would be best? There is a sticky on "juice and yeast experiments" or something like that. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/resu...riments-83060/

CvilleKevin is far more of a cider expert than I am and even though the thread is long, it'd be worth a read to see his results on the various yeast strains he's used.
__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006
Yooper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 03:56 PM   #9
shafferpilot
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
shafferpilot's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 1,639
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Excellent. Thanks for the help

__________________

A great man knows that he knows NOTHING

shafferpilot is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-08-2011, 04:09 PM   #10
Jacob_Marley
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Detroit
Posts: 911
Liked 146 Times on 114 Posts
Likes Given: 52

Default

One yeast you might want to consider is Wyeast 4184 Sweet Mead yeast (also known as 3184).

4184 is described as:
"One of two strains for sweet mead making. Leaves 2-3% residual sugar in most mead's. Rich, fruity profile complements fruit-mead fermentation. Use additional nutrients for mead making. Ciders, Cysers, Fruit wines, Ginger ale, Cherry, Raspberry and Peach. "
http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststr...tail.cfm?ID=44

It has an alcohol tolerance of only 11%.
It's flocculation characteristics are said by Wyeast to be medium but I've seen this yeast characterized as high-flocculation before.
In general, using a yeast that has a high flocculation tendency and getting the yeast out of suspension promptly will help preserve more sugars.

If yer going to use 4184/3184, note that it has some definite needs:

Rehydrate the yeast to start with good oxygenation, and then build a starter.
(This is even more the case as 4184 is sensitive to age and any hot or difficult storage conditions ... which can leave you with the task of nursing a dud back to life.)
This yeast needs nutrients - best added in stages.
It does *not* like low pH ... 3.8 or higher is needed ... and you should check the pH often particularly as it gets going to make sure you don't have a pH drop and stall. This is a bigger thing with honey as some types of honey are highly buffered ... but you still need to stay on top of it ... I'd say testing 3 times a day for the first 3 or 4 days of fermentation. ... This yeast stalls.
For what it's worth, it doesn't like extremely high sugar conditions ... not a problem in cider but if you were doing a mead, the honey is sometime added to the must over time.
Also, this is a slow long ferment yeast. Correct temperature. Patience.

Nottingham and Windsor both have high flocculation characteristics too and an alcohol tolerance range of about 12% to 15%.

Cold crashing when your must gets toward your desired sweetness will help settle things down and help get the yeast out of suspension too.

Hope this helps.

__________________
Jacob_Marley is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Edworts idea brewser09 Cider Forum 2 02-23-2011 09:41 PM
Idea for a Holiday Hybrid ceannt Cider Forum 7 01-07-2010 04:08 PM
just an idea LewisM Cider Forum 14 09-27-2006 10:04 PM
an idea dazza001 Cider Forum 5 09-20-2006 08:21 PM
New recipe idea Talcottsk Cider Forum 8 03-06-2006 03:33 PM