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Old 11-22-2011, 02:58 PM   #1
OrSin
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Default First time Apple Cider, Wine, Jack

First to get this over with I work for the ATF as contractor for 3 years and this is what they told me about making apple jack.

We don't care if:
It not over 24%
You don't own a still (freeze distillation ok)
You don't sell it.

I'm not interest in debating If I'm right or not. The agent that would show up to my house (in my state anyway) I would know so I'm safe if I do these things.

I'm trying a few batches and I want them each to be pretty sweet.
I'm use Lalvin EC-1118 and want it to go all the way to 18% and still be a little sweet so I'm using about 2 lbs of sugar and adding 1/2lb of sugar equivalent about 2 weeks in for each gallon. For the equivalent 1/2 lb I was going to make 1 apple concentrate, 1 honey and 1 browns sugar to test the different taste.

I plan on fermenting in my garage so the temperature will range from 45-60 F.
After it done I'm a little worry about "bad" alcohol messing up the taste and give me hang overs.

After doing some research this what I have found. (again I could be wrong)
Fermentation make all these but some in very small amounts.

Acetone 56.5C (134F)
Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
Ethanol 78C (172F)
2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
1-Propanol 97C (207F)
Water 100C (212F)
Butanol 116C (241F)
Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
Furfural 161C (322F)

The wood alcohol is the hang over cause by far. So i plan to on heat the batch to 160F for 10 min to burn it off. I might loose some good ethanol but that ok to get rid of the bad.

Then I plan on freeze distillation a little. Very little I doubt in the end it over 20% alcohol so not really apple jack level.

I figure if I do both I should be able to remove the Methanol from heating and
Water, Butanol, Amyl and Furfural from freezing and be left with a smoother Apple wine/jack.

I'm not doing it to get the % way up, just smooth out the taste.

I have a few questions.

1. Is it enough sugar to keep it sweet.
2. If I slow ferment, will it produce less methanol. (so i can skip the heating)
3. If I don't heat it will the yeast completely die after freezing it (25-30F) for 2-3 day or just go dominate. As I plan on bottling it and don't want it to carbonate and to stay sweet.

Other commits are well come too.

Thanks

PS
If this works ok I might try the turbo yeast and take it to 22% and try the same thing.

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Old 11-22-2011, 04:54 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrSin View Post
I'm trying a few batches and I want them each to be pretty sweet.
I'm use Lalvin EC-1118 and want it to go all the way to 18% and still be a little sweet so I'm using about 2 lbs of sugar and adding 1/2lb of sugar equivalent about 2 weeks in for each gallon. For the equivalent 1/2 lb I was going to make 1 apple concentrate, 1 honey and 1 browns sugar to test the different taste.
so, if i am reading this correctly, you are essentially going to add 2.5 lbs extra fermentables per gallon, so 12.5 pounds to a 5 gallon batch?

if so, you need more sugar than that. ec-1118 will tear through that pretty quickly and not poop out. it will finish dry unless you stop it.
i made a strong cyser that was 15 pounds honey to 4.5 gallons apple juice. finished dry as a bone (that's what i wanted) and is now aging...and aging...and aging.

first i would suggest two things.....use K1-V1116 yeast and kick your fermentables up to 3.5 pounds per gallon at least. if the k1-v1116 gets stuck, then add some ec-1118, but the k1v is gentler and will make a nicer apple schnapps kinda beverage like you have going here.

i have never heated anything like this up, so i can't offer advice there. hangovers make you stronger.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:54 PM   #3
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I was thinking 3.5 at first but it seems like so much, so I lower the amount to it to 2.5. I already got the ec-1118 so I will try 4lbs at start then add the .5.

Thanks

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Old 11-22-2011, 07:23 PM   #4
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just remember that the 18% upper limit is a guideline, healthy champagne yeast can go higher than that. with nice temps like you will have and easily fermentable sugars (which you also have) 20% isn't that much of a reach.

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Old 11-22-2011, 09:55 PM   #5
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If you freeze distill something to under 24% there is literally no way they can prove you didn't just ferment to those levels

So is the concentrating technically illegal just unenforcable until that point?

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Old 11-23-2011, 12:19 AM   #6
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Most state allow 100 gallon for beer or wine for personal use. The definition of what is beer and wine is blurry in some area. Some state had % in the laws and some don't.

The Fed say if you have a distillery on the property they have the right the check what you are making. I'm not sure if that is true, but I'm sure they can get a warrant if they see one or suspect if you have one. Most time if you don't sell it, give it a minor or no one complains then they don't care in at all.

Remember ATF was part of treasury for long time and they really only cared if you was not paying taxes on it. Now they are under Dept of Justice and they only care about the illegal trafficking of alcohol. Now taxation (and production) of alcohol fall under TTF with is still part of Treasury. TTF has no enforce agents so they dont even check on people an more. They just look at licenses really. So the feds are really out of the picture mostly. So that leave local law. And most are completely clueless about what is and is not legal and they got better stuff to do. So if no neighbors complain and you good. 90% of the time someone gets in trouble its because someone thinks you got a meth lab.

Found a web site for you.
http://www.homebrewersassociation.or...fairs/statutes

Just put in your state for more information.



Sorry never answer your question exactly.
Freeze distillation is term that not really in the book. You don't have a still its not distillation to most people. Some commercial yeast can go to 25% now. So if you nervous, get a packet or turbo yeast and say you used that. It should be unenforceable. Now I'm not lawyer so look up the laws for your state.

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Old 11-26-2011, 05:01 AM   #7
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From my understanding, for best results, freeze distillation works best with multiple, repeated freeze/thaw cycles. If you are only going to freeze it for a couple of days, the likely outcome willl be slush that you would have to then strain of the frozen water crystals. I would expect a lot of waste from this. The repeated freeze/thaw cycles allow the water to seperate from the alchohol, eventually, you will be left with a "core" of alchohol in a block if ice. Drill a hole in the ice then pour off the Jack....

For what you are looking for, I think your best bet is time.

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Old 11-26-2011, 07:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frydogbrews View Post
first i would suggest two things.....use K1-V1116 yeast and kick your fermentables up to 3.5 pounds per gallon at least. if the k1-v1116 gets stuck, then add some ec-1118, but the k1v is gentler and will make a nicer apple schnapps kinda beverage like you have going here.
EC-1118 isn't the greatest tasting yeast, and when it's concentrated it would be more apparent, especially with cider. Like he said^ I would start with a gentler yeast, maybe even a wine yeast and then finish off the rest of your sugars with EC-1118 or another champ yeast.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:57 PM   #9
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Why not just make EdWorts Apfelwine and Freeze Concentrate it. That is what I have done and it comes out pretty nice. I did not have Montrachet so I had to use Cotes De Blanc

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Old 12-01-2011, 10:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstar View Post
From my understanding, for best results, freeze distillation works best with multiple, repeated freeze/thaw cycles. If you are only going to freeze it for a couple of days, the likely outcome willl be slush that you would have to then strain of the frozen water crystals. I would expect a lot of waste from this. The repeated freeze/thaw cycles allow the water to seperate from the alchohol, eventually, you will be left with a "core" of alchohol in a block if ice. Drill a hole in the ice then pour off the Jack....

For what you are looking for, I think your best bet is time.
I use gallon milk jugs and when I am ready I just invert them in a big funnel. Drain, refreeze...etc
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