Fermentation Problem Help Needed!

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Barganman04

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I got 5 gallons of cider to ferment. When friends of mine picked it up they added 1/16th tsp/gallon of Potassium MetaBisulfite

About a week later when I got it I used a thief to collect 1200ml heated it to 80F in a sanitized flask and then pitched yeast

I added 3/8 tsp more and allowed it 24 hours to warm to room temp before pitching the yeast.

48 Hours later still no fermentation activity. What do I do?? Did I kill my yeast with the K-Meta??

Is it probably ok til tomorrow evening??
 
It should be ok, since you pitched the yeast a week later after the kmeta addition. I'd grab a sanitized spoon/rod/dowel and stir it like mad for a day or two. That should give some o2 to the yeast, and help disipate any lingering SO2.
 
Oops- wait! you added 3/8 teaspoon MORE of k-meta? I'm not sure I understand. If you added 3/8 tsp more of k-meta (more than three times the recommended "dose") after already adding it, then yes I'd say k-meta is a big problem.

Stir, stir, stir, stir, stir. Three or four times a day. Then pitch fresh yeast in about 4-5 days.
 
I added the yeast a week after the FIRST k-meta addition.

I added an additional 3/8 tsp 24 hours before pitching.

I should also mention I transferred the cider from a carboy to my sanitized fermentation bucket 24 hours before pitching so there should have been plenty of O2
 
No specific aeration and I did not add any nutrient....I may have some lying around. Should I add some??

No, at this point the problem is over sulfiting. It was already oversulfited when you got it (1/8 teaspoon is sufficient for 5 gallons) and then it was triple oversulfited again, by you. I would guess that your must is far over 50 ppm, probably by five fold.

Stir, stir, stir, stir the must. All the time. Several times a day. You can pour it from one sanitized bucket to another even. You want to get rid of excess SO2. After a few days of that, you can try repitching fresh yeast.

And.......step away from the sulfites! No one will get hurt. :D
 
Refrigerate in the meantime or leave it room temp? Concerns with it getting infected before pitching from all that stirring?

Room temp. And no, it won't get infected with like 250 ppm of sulfites! The idea is to get rid of it- you probably can't even grow mold in there if you try. It's way overdosed with sulfites- probably by 5-6 fold.
 
No, at this point the problem is over sulfiting. It was already oversulfited when you got it (1/8 teaspoon is sufficient for 5 gallons) and then it was triple oversulfited again, by you. I would guess that your must is far over 50 ppm, probably by five fold. :D

I'm the guy that picked up the cider for Barganman04 and added the 1/16 tsp per gallon. I used K-meta from Crosby & Baker. The label states:

"Usage: 1/8 tsp per gallon = approx 100 ppm of free SO2"

So, the 1/16 tsp per gallon I added should yield approx 50 ppm. I realize cidermakers opinions vary, but I don't consider that oversulfiting.

Barganman04 added another 3/8 tsp in 5 gallons a week later. Using the numbers from Crosby & Baker, that should have added approx 60 ppm.

The additions were done a week apart, so I don't think you can add the two together, since the SO2 from the first addition is pretty much gone.
 
I'm the guy that picked up the cider for Barganman04 and added the 1/16 tsp per gallon. I used K-meta from Crosby & Baker. The label states:

"Usage: 1/8 tsp per gallon = approx 100 ppm of free SO2"

So, the 1/16 tsp per gallon I added should yield approx 50 ppm. I realize cidermakers opinions vary, but I don't consider that oversulfiting.

Barganman04 added another 3/8 tsp in 5 gallons a week later. Using the numbers from Crosby & Baker, that should have added approx 60 ppm.

The additions were done a week apart, so I don't think you can add the two together, since the SO2 from the first addition is pretty much gone.

Well, I don't agree but if you've had good results with fermentation starting like that, who am I to argue?

Without an S02 meter, it's hard to say. But it sure takes more than a week for sulfites to fully disipate.
 
sorry to butt in selfishly, but i am trying to figure out what an appropriate amount of k-meta might be should i ever need to use it, so i'll ask here. i make mostly small 5L batches (=1.32 us gallons), leaving me with the confusing 0.165 teaspoons needed for 1/8 tsp per gal, or worse 0.0825 tsp for 1/16 tsp per gal. ok so it's not meant to be an exact science but is there a mass to teaspoon conversion that i can use for an estimate?? (i have a balance good to about 0.2 mg) it's fairly light powder so i would guess i could have a densely packed teaspoon that is twice as full as a fluffy teaspoon...
anyways all good results so far with no sulfites, knock on wood, and thanks for any suggestions
 
It is my understanding that most of the sulfites dissipate fairly quickly, which is why most people wait 24 hours to pitch. Even if the additions were done together, I wouldn't expect 110 ppm to kill the yeast if the starter was added 24 hours later.
 
According to LD Carlson's Website they recommend usage at 1/4 tsp per 6 gallons for bactericide and Antioxidant for fermentation.

The first addition was 1/4 + 1/16
The second week later addition was 1/4 + 1/8

I have read 1/4 tsp is about 40 - 45 ppm in 5 gallons

Therefore 50 ppm was added first
Then another 60 ppm a week later

110 ppm should not KILL healthy active yeast but i'm pretty sure they were active when pitched and DEAD in the fermentor so this is the confusion
 
I went to the LHBS bought a few packets of S-04 and some Fermax Yeast Nutrient

I added 5 tsp of yeast nutrient as per the directions on the package and directly pitched S-04.

We will know within 24 - 48 hrs if the SO2 is what killed the yeast

FYI I took a look at the package and it said:
"1/8 tsp / Gallon = 100 ppm free SO2"

So I was correct on my 110ppm estimate between the 2 additions.
 
sorry to butt in selfishly, but i am trying to figure out what an appropriate amount of k-meta might be should i ever need to use it, so i'll ask here. i make mostly small 5L batches (=1.32 us gallons), leaving me with the confusing 0.165 teaspoons needed for 1/8 tsp per gal, or worse 0.0825 tsp for 1/16 tsp per gal. ok so it's not meant to be an exact science but is there a mass to teaspoon conversion that i can use for an estimate?? (i have a balance good to about 0.2 mg) it's fairly light powder so i would guess i could have a densely packed teaspoon that is twice as full as a fluffy teaspoon...
anyways all good results so far with no sulfites, knock on wood, and thanks for any suggestions

For small batches, there are two relatively easy ways to do it. Once is to buy campden tablets- they are easy to use as you just crush them and dissolve them. One of them is generally used for one gallon. Another way to do it is to make a sulfite solution, in where you dissolve 1/8 teaspoon of sulfite into some water (I can't remember the exact amount, but I'm sure Jack Keller's site will have the correct info) and then use 1/2 teaspoon of the resulting solution. That will also give you the correct amount of sulfites.
 
I'm the guy that picked up the cider for Barganman04 and added the 1/16 tsp per gallon. I used K-meta from Crosby & Baker. The label states:

"Usage: 1/8 tsp per gallon = approx 100 ppm of free SO2"

So, the 1/16 tsp per gallon I added should yield approx 50 ppm. I realize cidermakers opinions vary, but I don't consider that oversulfiting.

Barganman04 added another 3/8 tsp in 5 gallons a week later. Using the numbers from Crosby & Baker, that should have added approx 60 ppm.

The additions were done a week apart, so I don't think you can add the two together, since the SO2 from the first addition is pretty much gone.

Has this worked for you? The OP seems to have a fermentation that won't start and it seems logical that the sulfites are the issue.

Some of us don't use the the campden or sulfites - even when using fresh juice. CvilleKevin has written quite a bit about that.
 
I too am an oversulfiter. New to cider and read labe wrong, added 5 times too much, so I diluted it down since I had more cider on hand, to about 2.5 times too much, then pitched yeast, nothing for t2 days, so I stirred and then repitched about half the original amount of yeast, after letting it sit in 50/50 juice/water, after boiling, for about 3 hours. Next day, nice activity, another day, nice and vigirous. Hope this helps
 
Sorry about the delay in getting the update to all, I have been feverously trying to finish the workload before thanksgiving.

In either case, Fermentation started up within 12 hours of pitching the second packet of S-04 and yeast nutrient

What is interesting though is just prior to fermentation a friend brought over free SO2 test vials. In the cider WITHOUT the second addition of K-meta we read about 20ppm (50 added 2 weeks prior). On my cider we read about 50ppm (50 added 2 weeks prior 60 added 1 week prior).

This confirms the 110ppm FULL STRENGTH estimate and was probably ACTUALLY closer to 95 or 100ppm. This should not have been enough KMeta to kill my yeast should it?
 
Since teaspoons are vague, gallons don't exist here (and are a different size in britain) and most of my batches are small, which means measurements in the 1/64 tsp or serial dilutions, i calculated an estimate of K-meta by mass, for metric and small batch users. Moderately precise scale needed.
I weighed 1 level, unpacked tsp of K-metabisulfite ten different times and took the average (variance was small) = 5.5 g. Presumably this will be similar for other batches of k-meta but i don't know if they are all fine powder like mine.
Going on various calculations, estimates and recommendations from this and other threads 1/8 tsp per gallon gives around 100 ppm free SO2.
that's 0.688 g in 3.8 L, or 181 mg per liter, for 100 ppm.
So for the recommended usage of 25 or 50 ppm SO2 you would use 45 or 91 mg per 1L respectively.
For example for a 5L batch if I want 50 ppm free SO2 I add 455 mg of powder, or easier yet dissolve 4.55 g in 50 ml water and add 5 ml of that to my juice.
does this help at all?
no?
fine.
 
This confirms the 110ppm FULL STRENGTH estimate and was probably ACTUALLY closer to 95 or 100ppm. This should not have been enough KMeta to kill my yeast should it?

Maybe not kill each and every one, but certainly stun it and inhibit its activity. And I think it was probably higher than your estimate, since it disapates relatively quickly.
 

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