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Old 12-02-2010, 06:17 PM   #141
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Hello,
One more question. Is racking to secondary necessary? Can i bottle from primary? And if yes, how do I fight with sediment in cider? I sip about 7 oz for gravity reading and it is full of sediment. I used safale s04 yeast.

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Old 12-03-2010, 12:24 AM   #142
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Robert, I rack from primary to a bottling bucket and bottle from there.

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Old 12-03-2010, 08:52 AM   #143
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Thanks. And what about sediment? Is there a way to reduce its amount in cider?

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Old 12-03-2010, 09:46 AM   #144
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When you rack, you'll leave much of the sediment behind. When the bottles carbonate, more yeast will flocculate and then when you chill the bottles, more sediment will drop out.

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Old 12-07-2010, 05:22 PM   #145
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I must say, I find this thread both amusing and scary at the same time. Amusing in that folks are worried about bottle bombs from yeast, but not about heating pressurized glass bottles. Scary because glass is inherently unpredictable, and frankly, I'm a bit surprised that more explosions haven't occurred.

Pappers, while I appreciate the information and detail which you have provided, I'm not convinced that your method is safe at any reasonable carbonation level. You have admonished people to not to pasteurize over-carbonated bottles, but at what level is it over-carbonated?

If you take any brewing calculator (see Brewheads) and punch in a few numbers it may be informative. Take 3 volumes of CO2 and a temperature of 190 F and see what the pressure inside the bottle becomes (135 PSI). That's enough pressure to blow Champagne bottles. Even Champagne bottles can explode - visit any Champagne producer and you'll invariably find some broken glass. Beer bottle are definitely not designed for that (what do they test them at 60 PSI maybe?). At 2 volumes you get 98 PSI.

So back to the calculator. If you have 2 volumes of CO2 and the temp in the pot drops down to 160 when you put the bottles in and stays at that level, you'll only get 75 PSI. Honestly, I don't even want to go there, but at least it is a lot lower.

Now yeast themselves will only ferment up to around 7-8 atmospheres of CO2 pressure (even Champagne yeast). So they aren't going to produce a pressure above about 98-110 PSI at room temp. So if you are worried that the yeast are going to explode bottles at 98-110 PSI, then why on earth would you heat bottles so that they range from 98-135 PSI. I cannot understand the logic.

The only rationale that I can put to it is if the yeast are left alone, that 98-110 PSI will be there at all times where in the pasteurization process, the bottles only stay at that pressure for 10 minutes and are then able to cool down back to reasonable pressures, so that if they survive the boiling, you should be okay. However as you reach in to grab a 190 degree glass bottle with 100 PSI in it, I'd only do it wearing some heavy duty mitts and some safety goggles.

The fact that you've been fortunate thus far does not guarantee future safety. I've had some commercial bottles explode in a small outdoor fridge when it lost power and the temp was above 100F, so putting bottles with any level of carbonation in 190F water is potentially dangerous. I would strongly encourage anyone considering this approach to rethink the effort. It's a heck of a lot safer to force carbonate to 2 volumes of CO2 if you want to keep something sweet.

Medsen

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Old 12-07-2010, 05:45 PM   #146
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Medsen, I share your concern, especially as people have posted things (here and in other threads) like "my bottles were gushing but I tried to pasteurize anyway".

And I agree that force carbing is an easy way to approach the problem, if you keg.

I am careful and cautious, do exactly what I outline at the beginning of this thread. After a couple dozen batches, I have yet to have a bottle explode. I promise that if I do, I will post about it here.

Edit: I have also seen a small commercial brewery that pasteurizes its beer in essentially the same way - a large metal container that they fill with bottles, close the lid, fill with heated water, empty and then remove the bottles. Also, a sticky at the top of the cider forum http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/i-th...e-info-139409/ describes how the author has pasteurized bottle-conditioned cider. This is a process that has been used to some benefit by others, not something I made up.

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Old 12-09-2010, 07:07 AM   #147
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despite the concerns listed above, or perhaps bolstered by them and determined to test fate, i recently attempted my first stovetop pasteurization. my bottles were very nicely carbonated but by no means gushers. i wasn't too excited about dunking them in the very hot water recommended on this thread (about 90 rest-of-the-world degrees) so i tested how long it would take a bottle of water to get up to around 65 (a good kill temp) in a 70 degree pot, it took about 5 minutes. I decided on 20 minutes at 70.
Most of the batch was bottled in 750ml swing-top bottles (used) procured from a belgian beer seller and the rest in regular crown cap beer bottles. and one in a test 500 ml plastic fizzy water bottle. In went the small bottles, with a towel over the top and then the lid, at about 15 minutes there was a pop sound. honestly i thought it was the plastic one, as this was no screaming shrapnel bang. but sure enough it was glass. i hoped it was just a flaw in the bottle and carried on (very carefully) with the big ones. meanwhile the plastic one looked like i photoshopped it into a bloated hippo. it expanded like crazy and the liquid level was lower, don't know if that was due to increase in volume or if it somehow leaked. don't really care
1st batch of big ones went fine but at the end the water was very cool, 45 or so. don't know if they really got to temperature. labeled them so if they go bomb i know why. upped to 80 degrees for the next batch. after a few minutes they were really fizzing at the rubber seals. they fizzed for a while. the last batch also at 80 degrees fizzed less but there was fizzing. i'm sure these got up to temperature.
questions: why did i lose that first bottle? were the swing tops also over-pressurized but survived due to leaking? how much gas did i lose... if it is only very high pressure that will allow leaking then i am probably fine, but if it was a combination of pressure + the seals becoming too soft in the heat then am i likely to have lost all carbonation pressure? for now i'm considering it a partial success as these guys definitely had enough sugar left to make them a terrorist threat. but i now want to age for a while so i won't be opening one for a couple months.

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Old 12-09-2010, 10:26 AM   #148
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Sorry your process did't work. There are many variables, you used different sized bottles, at a different temperature, for a different length of time than the process I use.

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Old 12-09-2010, 10:35 AM   #149
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i'm not saying it didn't work actually (well, aside from the broken bottle!), unless you think that my leaky rubber seals scuppered the whole game. i'll post results once i know more.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:03 PM   #150
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I did another 5 gallon batch last night, while also washing the dinner dishes and making brownies. Another two cases of sparkling cider, ready to drink!

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