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Old 03-01-2013, 11:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by LeBreton View Post
This seems counter to logic as cider has a lower ABV and higher pH than most wines, leaving it more vulnerable overall. Could you expand on this thought? I may be missing something.
Wild yeast cause most problems in red wine, when the proper yeast have trouble fermenting dry because of the high alcohol levels. It is very easy to get a bit of residual sugar and high pH. When the saccharomyces yeast stop working it allows the brett type yeasts to reactivate and consume that last little bit of residual sugar, if so2 levels have also dropped due to binding with the pigments in red wine it is worse. With cider it is easier to ferment dry because the alcohol is lower, and also you can keep the pH and so2 levels right easily. Also it is just from my own experience, I never have trouble with wild yeast in cider even though I don't use so2.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:48 PM   #12
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You don't fix infections, you prevent them. Each of those bacteria adds their own waste products to the cider and either you like the result, or you dump it.

But, remember that strong ciders can have a nasty edge to them that will mellow out in time. One of the best experiences I've had was attending an 'off flavor' class at OSU. It really clarified what was hopelessly damaged vs what would age out.

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Old 03-02-2013, 12:42 AM   #13
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Wild yeast cause most problems in red wine, when the proper yeast have trouble fermenting dry because of the high alcohol levels. It is very easy to get a bit of residual sugar and high pH. When the saccharomyces yeast stop working it allows the brett type yeasts to reactivate and consume that last little bit of residual sugar, if so2 levels have also dropped due to binding with the pigments in red wine it is worse. With cider it is easier to ferment dry because the alcohol is lower, and also you can keep the pH and so2 levels right easily. Also it is just from my own experience, I never have trouble with wild yeast in cider even though I don't use so2.
Thanks greg, that makes sense, I'll be the first to admit that I know relatively little about the nuances of winemaking. Not too many stuck fermentations in the cider world but that actually matches which my anecdotal experience with brett in cider mainly being an issue once already in the bottle.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:05 AM   #14
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From reports that I have heard it may be that you have tasted LAB off-flavours rather than brett, from a wild MLF. According to Andrew Lea this is a common cause of contamination, but it is impossible to know for sure.

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Old 03-02-2013, 02:07 AM   #15
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This information absolutely rocks! A little difficult to follow because I'm still a bit wet behind the ears But I will start taking the keywords (LAB, saccharomyces, MLF?) and researching right away!

Greg, LeB; you guys are ACES!

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Old 03-02-2013, 03:13 AM   #16
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If you get acetobacter and film yeast, you can have a good idea what it is and the causes. With mousey, sticking plaster or baynyard flavours it is very difficult to know the exact problem, but probably you need more so2 and to ensure that the fermentation and MLF finish fully. Of course some people want residual sugar for sweetness, in which case it is even more important to keep the so2 levels right. As long as you keep all your equipment clean, sanitation is rarely a direct cause of problems.

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Old 03-02-2013, 03:10 PM   #17
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I agree that Brett if often the scapegoat for many off flavors which can be caused by other bugs. That being said, if it's got the band-aid, the funk, and the horse blanket all in one then I'm blaming Brett.

To a certain extent, identifying the exact bug causing the problem is unnecessary, as the treatment is the same. If I find a film floating in one of my ciders, I definitely won't waste time trying to figure out if it's Candida, Acetobacter, or Zymomonas. Instead, I'll be getting ready to rack off, dose, and/or bottle and pasteurize ASAP and identify why it happened in the first place.

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Old 03-02-2013, 03:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBreton
I agree that Brett if often the scapegoat for many off flavors which can be caused by other bugs. That being said, if it's got the band-aid, the funk, and the horse blanket all in one then I'm blaming Brett.

To a certain extent, identifying the exact bug causing the problem is unnecessary, as the treatment is the same. If I find a film floating in one of my ciders, I definitely won't waste time trying to figure out if it's Candida, Acetobacter, or Zymomonas. Instead, I'll be getting ready to rack off, dose, and/or bottle and pasteurize ASAP and identify why it happened in the first place.
Candida? Pretty sure people can get this? What is that? I was told by a doc once I may have a light form of this...?!?
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:31 PM   #19
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Candida? Can people get this? What is that?
The reason I ask is I had a very violent fermentation and the airlock has been bubbling every second for almost 7 days...
I have a lot of bubbles on the surface and I wonder the different between heathy foam head and unhealthy film?

LeB, do u ever teach this subject at work or in your area...? I would travel from Cali all the way to N.Y. Just to learn from you dude! LEBADASS!
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:08 PM   #20
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I wouldn't sweat over bubbles, so long as the ferment is going strong you should be happy. Like candida, both humans and cider can also get infected by strep.

I'm actually gonna be in your neck of the woods in about a week. Mountain View specifically, any suggestions for libations in that area?

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