Cider pH

**Gordond** · 07-13-2011, 10:19 AM

Here I'd like to tap into some of your experience guys..I've read (in the few books I can find-on cider - not much out there though) that the ideal pH for a cider fermentation is from pH 3.1-3.5. I haven't seen much info if any on the forum regarding this point.

Do you cider folk just ignore pH, adjust for it or what ?

I am into my 5th or 6th batch but not getting the results I would like.

Latest Recipe (sorry about the units I'm on the other side of the pond).

4.5 lts pasteurized apple juice.
50 ml cold tea.
juice of 1 lemon.
1tsp yeat nutrient and energizer.
1tsp malic acid.

pH 3.1
OG 1048.
SG final 1004

ferments just fine taste not good. Next step control temp and pasteurize but I'm still worried its not going to improve the taste much.

I don't add sugar (gets too "hot" alcohol wise for me and the family)

Thanks for any help.

PS.I'm not gonna give up until it comes out good...took me years for beer and now I'm happy with the results I'm getting..

gregbathurst · 07-13-2011, 11:06 AM

pH and titratable acidity (TA) are both important. pH is important for the effectiveness OF SO2 (camden tablets) which work best at pH 3.4 or below. With apples the pH varies according to variety, climate and ripeness. Cooking varieties have low pH, bittersweet cider varieties have high pH, cool climates give low pH, warm climates high, and pH rises as the apples ripen so unripe apples have low pH. Good quality cider apples will have quite a high pH so are blended with low pH "sharp" apples to give balance.

Also to complicate things, pH rises with fermentation, and even more if you have a MLF. The most important thing is the quality of the apples and the juice. Also age tends to help. I add juice from crabapples to give body, so if you can source some crabapples this year it may help.

**oldmate** · 07-13-2011, 10:27 PM

I don't usually bother checking the pH of my ciders, but I know a lot of people like to adjust the pH when making mead. I agree with Greg, the quality of your juice is pretty important. If you're looking for better results try and find some fresh-pressed juice (no idea how common that is in Italy).

wildman · 07-15-2011, 02:15 AM

+1 on all the advice given. proper ph can be quite subjective. mine is on the high acid side and quite a few people rave about it. the only other thing i can suggest is ditch all your additions.

**Gordond** · 07-15-2011, 07:33 AM

Thanks all...the idea was to simulate cider apple juice rather than eating apple juice since getting my hands on a decent fresh pressed juice isn't easy over here.

And Wildman..Ok radical suggestion (thanks though - that's the beauty of HBT it keeps provoking you to think again).
I started making the additions since pasteurized apple juice on its own with a decent (S-04) yeast gave crap results. But I'll go back to that as a control to make sure it wasn't something simple that I screwed up on my first batches.

So I was right... not a lot of pH adjustment going on out there and therefore probably not worth getting obsessed with it - its something else that's amiss..

wildman · 07-17-2011, 06:21 PM

I see you were looking for more flavor. Yes that's hard to do without good apples, I rely on crabs and lots of them to get what i want. I wish I had some better advice for you. But yes I say ditch all your additions and head in a different direction, think outside the box and local if you can. Look for crabapple trees, i can't believe italy doesn't have any.

frydogbrews · 07-18-2011, 12:17 AM

i add a tablespoon of an acid blend containing malic and tartaric acid to my secondary, then let things age a few months. no problems.

**Gordond** · 07-18-2011, 07:42 AM

Thanks Wildman,
Its true that trying to make good cider from commercial juice is probably like trying to make a proverbial "silk purse from a sow's ear"..but availability throughout the year and cost are strong drivers. Crab apples are around but I haven't found anyone juicing them yet and I am going to have to travel a long way to get good juice (which will probably be dessert anyway). The wonderful tradition of Italian cider and beer making was stopped by Mussolini and co..before WWII and people hardly know what cider is now... Now the taste for real ale is coming back for beer, and Strongbow with its commercial might is trying to attract a new generation of cider drinkers...

I will go for the control without additives in the next few weeks and let you know what leaving them out does.

Frydogbrews
thanks for letting me know that at least someone reads the books and is trying the same sort of thing.

Cheers..

**dinnerstick** · 07-18-2011, 08:00 AM

crabs are also rare here, so i 'employed' some students (with the promise of a few bottles) on an ecology course so scour the countryside hedges and make note on a map. so far i have my eye on about 4 trees. also check botanic gardens (sneaky)

gregbathurst · 07-18-2011, 09:37 AM

If you want to get into real cider you need a mill (or scratter) and press, then you can juice your own crab apples and other apples. Some of the most popular apple mills are made in Italy so maybe you could get one 2nd hand. If you make your own juice you can let the apples ripen properly on the tree, that's how you get really tasty cider. When you get into cider "hardcore" you grow your own trees or source your apples locally, and press your own juice. It's coming up to apple time in the nth hemisphere, so time to get moving.