The Great Bottle Opener Giveaway

Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > Cider Lager

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-31-2013, 05:59 PM   #1
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

I gave this post this name so I can find it in all the other cider recipe threads.

I am trying to make something like a commercial British cider like blackthorn, merrydown, bulmers, etc with shop juice.

I read up on the long ashton cider research notes, http://www.cider.org.uk/part1.htm
various other sites and threads here, but mostly guided by taste.
My biggest complaint with my cider so far is it doesnt taste like cider. It's nice, appley, strong and fizzy but it lacks that distinctive 'cider' flavour. If you have drunk /been drunk on these ciders you know they dont taste of apples, they taste of...well cider.

I don't have keg so it has to be fizzy in the bottle.

Here I document my so far partially failed attempts to achieve what is available pretty cheaply in the UK and at great expense here in Quebec where apples are about the only thing that grows and yet, despite the french & english heritage in making cider, the ciders from here are over-prices artisanal, presumably tourist, drinks at 10-15$ a bottle, that taste like watery fizzy apple juice with alcohol. Not stuff to be quaffed by the pint to quench summer thirsts.

The main breakthrough I had was that my last batch tasted right. I screwed up the cold crash and pasteurising but I will here document my efforts to get it right.

I use a preservative free juice and malic acid to get pH to 3.5.
I add fructose to raise OG to 1.06, because these are closest to apple sugars and acids. Probably fructose is a waste of money but I have some anyway.

The start pH of juice was 3.7. I added 5g of malic acid in 4L juice to get pH down and 200g fructose to get OG up from 1.04. I made a graph of pH against malic acid addition (g/L);

I used saflager 23, brewed at about 10-12C, (cold room in basement).

Fermented slowly for two weeks to 1.015

What I should have done was cold crash first, bottle and pasteurise.

What I actually did was bottle and leave at room temp for 1 day. I got a yeasty krauseny froth and a mild sulphury tang and gushers.
I released pressure slowly, resealed and pasturised one bottle as per the sticky (190F 10 min). The rest I cold crashed in fridge. I still see evidence of fermentation in the fridge which suggests the use of lager yeast was not as great an idea as I thought. I'll turn the fridge down to zero celsius. So far nothing has cleared.
I will then try to decant them off the sediment without losing it all as froth. I will do this by cooling everything in freezer and pouring v carefully. It's going to be messy.

Second batch exact same recipe underway.....New results in a couple of weeks.

__________________
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2013, 07:49 PM   #2
Pickled_Pepper
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,246
Liked 74 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 20

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zider View Post
...at great expense here in Quebec where apples are about the only thing that grows and yet, despite the french & english heritage in making cider, the ciders from here are over-prices artisanal, presumably tourist, drinks at 10-15$ a bottle, that taste like watery fizzy apple juice with alcohol. Not stuff to be quaffed by the pint to quench summer thirsts.
Here! Here!

Apples grow prolifically in North Georgia, yet the price is so exorbitant for apples that I haven't been able to afford to produce my own juice. (I have a useless fruit press) It's easier said than done to spend $10 a gallon to produce my own blend of juice from fresh pressed. As much as I love cider, I cannot afford to do this. I'd rather spend $20-$25 to make beer.

I love cider. I enjoy the ciders I produce from store bought juice, but unless I can plant an orchard, I haven't found a way to make it economical. (Tasty, quaffible (?) pints are what I am in search of!)

I have subscribed and hope this discussion provides more insight.
__________________
Pickled_Pepper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2013, 03:22 AM   #3
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

5 days at 3c and its not so clear but clearing.

The fart in my face arôme is more bready. Taste ok but again the cideriness not appleyness has diminished a bit.

2nd batch I will ferment dry and carbonate by priming in bottle, as per this site
http://www.cider.org.uk/part3.htm
going vigorously now

My plan for batch 3 is try a malolactic acid age at room temp. http://www.winemakermag.com/stories/...-from-the-pros
Anyone tried it ?

If none of these work maybe I'll just give in and accept apple alcopops as a problem I can live with

image-596207846.jpg  
__________________
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-21-2013, 07:31 PM   #4
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Three weeks on the clearing stuff in fridge almost cleared so I drank it alongside a commercial cider from here called Mystique. Pretty similar except mine less watery.

The second batch not fermented yet. Tastes quite dry,planning MLF with and without oak in my bid for the cidery flavour.

__________________
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-21-2013, 09:18 PM   #5
CRock303
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: denver, colorado
Posts: 69
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Try some wine tannin. It is one thing that separates cider apples from desert apples.

__________________
CRock303 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-23-2013, 02:41 AM   #6
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRock303
Try some wine tannin. It is one thing that separates cider apples from desert apples.
Yeah tried it before. Certainly more pucker but no different taste

I decided not to split a batch so did both oak chips (2 teaspoons n 1 gall Sg 1.004) with MLF Smells like cheap Chardonnay so hope that improves. That said I quite like cheap Chardonnay so could be ok.

I had thought that so2 might give the taste I'm after but Calvin's juice experiments suggest no difference.

Question. I have an open pack of half used MLF liquid. I'm thinking to pressure cook a litre of 2% malic acid stir in some nutrient and try to get a culture going. When it goes cloudy put in fridge for later. Anyone tried propagating this?

Tomorrow's experiment.
__________________
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-23-2013, 12:17 PM   #7
Pickled_Pepper
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,246
Liked 74 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 20

Default

Thanks for the updates, Zider. I've never been a fan of cheap chardonnay, but an oaked chardonnay with hints of apple sounds nice. Maybe a nice pinot gris?

__________________
Pickled_Pepper is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-29-2013, 03:07 AM   #8
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

MLF expansion experiment fail
1) 200ml + 1 tsp malic acid +pinch yeast nutrient + 1 tsp malolactic culture from the packet
2) same as (1) but with 1tsp sugar
Nothing....not one bubble.

Oak+MLF taste test:
tastes better, oak not overpowering infact not discernible, MLF is odd, crystal clear and fizzing away.
The taste is cidery-ish, definitely different and definitely better, will taste again every couple of weeks, expect it to be don in 7 more weeks
I'll get the oak out when it tastes too strong.
Oak idea from here;
All of our ciders here at Westons Cider are fermented in our large stainless steel tanks. After this, our cider is then matured in our old oak vats. Cider needs a period of maturation after fermentation to develop its full character. Some of the juice is matured for up to 8 months resulting in the mature flavour and full character that is associated with Westons ciders. Our fermentation vats are made of traditional oak and some are older than 200 years. These vats are huge, in fact, our largest vat, Squeak, holds 42,107 gallons (that's 340,000 pints of cider!)
westons-cider.co.uk

__________________

Last edited by Zider; 04-29-2013 at 03:08 AM. Reason: error
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2013, 03:28 PM   #9
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

MLF culture

Found this will try tonight with apple juice
http://www.enartisvinquiry.com/downl...id%20Start.pdf

__________________
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2013, 04:48 AM   #10
Zider
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Quebec
Posts: 132
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Then I thought I might as well make another batch of cider and do simultaneous mlf with normal ferment (same recipe as before but with Nortingham). This will save time, expand the bacteria and maybe arrive at desired taste profile faster. I read for wine it's not preferred like this but for cider must be fine since ml bacteria and yeast must both be on apple skins at pressing. Maybe sulfite kills them?

Results to follow.

__________________
Zider is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
lager yeast for cider Caucasian Cider Forum 11 06-20-2013 12:34 PM
Lager cider? Thegreatestgray Cider Forum 2 02-22-2013 02:25 PM
Lager a Cider? Budzien Cider Forum 1 01-07-2013 02:07 AM
Cider with lager yeast steve76 Cider Forum 0 11-15-2012 08:20 PM
Lager yeast and carbonation cider? Boogro Cider Forum 3 09-24-2012 12:50 PM