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Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Cider Forum > Bottle Carbing Idea (Final Data Review)
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Old 11-14-2010, 04:48 AM   #31
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Actually, it appears Yuri has the stick.

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Old 11-14-2010, 01:43 PM   #32
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I've been following and replicating RukusDMs experiment since last week and he asked me to post my data here as well.

I bottled a batch of graff on 11/4/10, half I backsweetened and half I bottled with the standard amount of priming sugar for 2.5 volumes.

There were a few differences, mine was a graff instead of plain cider, I used Nottingham yeast and it was bottled only with priming sugar.

For the pressure gauged bottle, I didn't backsweeten, just priming sugar.

11/4/10 - bottled dry 68F
11/5/10 - 5.5 psi
11/6/10 - 8 psi
11/7/10 - 9 psi
11/8/10 - 10.5 psi
11/9/10 - 11.5 psi
11/10/10 - 13.5 psi
11/11/10 - 15 psi
11/12/10 - 17.5 psi
11/13/10 - 20 psi
11/14/10 - 22 psi

As you can see, my priming curve mirrors RukusDMs and matches well with standard keg priming charts for pressure vs vol.
It matches the standard timings for bottle carbing in beers as well.

I also opened a bottle to check carbonation ever 2-3 days and found very little carbing at up to 15 psi, with what i would consider normal carbing only showing within the last day at 20-21 psi.

In the past I have found the plastic squeeze bottle test to be a very unreliable way to judge carbonation. On my first try at pasteurization I blew 2 bottles and popped 2 other caps, on the 2nd batch I pasteurized to early and had almost no carbonation. Even though my squeeze bottles seemed just as firm.

I'll be pasteurizing the backsweetened graff later today, so we'll see if a standard bottle carb will cause bottle bombs. I'll post results after I finish.

Even if this test fails, I'm hoping that by using a pressure gauge we can home in on a reliable pressure that doesn't cause bottle bombs.

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Old 11-14-2010, 02:49 PM   #33
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Thanks for posting that. I'll be interested in seeing the Pasteurization data.

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Old 11-14-2010, 02:58 PM   #34
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Default New Data for Water bath temps

I ran a few more tests this morning. My original Pasteurization test only used 2 bottle. It occurred to me there would be more of a bath temperature drop with a full sixpack in there.

I did 2 tests. 1 test with 165 Degree's and 1 test with 175 Degrees. This was with 12oz Longnecks with water inside instead of beer. I will have to repeat these with cider as I don't have Pressure data, just pasteurization temperature data.

Here is the data for tests with a Sixpack in the bath.

165 Degree Test Data -






175 Degree Test Data -





Summary to follow

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#1 - 5 Gallons Harp Clone All Grain with Wyeast 2007 Lager (~5.5% ABV)

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#1 - 6 Gallons Dry Irish Stout Partial (~4.0 ABV)
#2 - 6 Gallons Brown Sugar Ale All Grain with Nottingham Yeast (~5.0% to 5.2%)

Kegged:
6 Gallons Honey Ale AG

Next:
6 Gallons Brown Sugar Lager

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Old 11-14-2010, 03:06 PM   #35
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I forgot to post the yeast pasteurization temperature links earlier.

Advances in Applied Microbiology on google books

The Biological Impact of Flash Pasteurization Over a Wide Temperature Interval

The Handbook of Food Preservation

They all recommend that 60-65C or 140-150F for 30-40 mins should be adequate to kill yeast to log 5.

Lower temps can be used, but the time length becomes a problem.

I've tested my 3 gallon pot by adding 8 12oz capped beer bottles filled with water. I heated the water to 170, removed it from the stove and added the bottles. After 5 mins the water bath temp had dropped to 145F and a test of one bottle showed that the internal water temp was 145F.

I left the bottles in the pot for 10 more mins then removed them and tested 1 bottle every 5 mins. The heat loss from the bottles was very slow, 1-2 degrees every 5 mins.

Including their 10 mins at temp in the waterbath, they remain over 140F for 1/2 and over 130 for 1 hr. I'm confident that is enough time and heat to reduce the yeast to negligible levels.

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Old 11-14-2010, 03:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pimento View Post
I forgot to post the yeast pasteurization temperature links earlier.

Advances in Applied Microbiology on google books

The Biological Impact of Flash Pasteurization Over a Wide Temperature Interval

The Handbook of Food Preservation

They all recommend that 60-65C or 140-150F for 30-40 mins should be adequate to kill yeast to log 5.

Lower temps can be used, but the time length becomes a problem.

I've tested my 3 gallon pot by adding 8 12oz capped beer bottles filled with water. I heated the water to 170, removed it from the stove and added the bottles. After 5 mins the water bath temp had dropped to 145F and a test of one bottle showed that the internal water temp was 145F.

I left the bottles in the pot for 10 more mins then removed them and tested 1 bottle every 5 mins. The heat loss from the bottles was very slow, 1-2 degrees every 5 mins.

Including their 10 mins at temp in the waterbath, they remain over 140F for 1/2 and over 130 for 1 hr. I'm confident that is enough time and heat to reduce the yeast to negligible levels.
Pimento, very nice summary. I didn't consider the temperature dwell time once removing from the bath. I'm really glad you thought of it.

I'm also happy to see that we have 2 tests that produced the same results. This gives more merit to the data originally posted.

I think that I need to continue tests and plot carbonation curves though. I was a bit concerned to hear that someone had a bottle carb up in 12 hours. Not knowing what that pressure was doesn't help though.

I don't have any cider left to bottle, so I'll have to start a couple of new batches. I'll try a small one with Champagne yeast, as I don't really care for that Strain, and I'll also try a Notty and another S-04 to see if that repeats as well.

I mentioned in my Temperature test post that I would do a summary, I think yours is more than sufficient.

Thanks again, and waiting to see your results

Regards
Doug.
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#1 - 5 Gallons Harp Clone All Grain with Wyeast 2007 Lager (~5.5% ABV)

Secondary's:
#1 - 6 Gallons Dry Irish Stout Partial (~4.0 ABV)
#2 - 6 Gallons Brown Sugar Ale All Grain with Nottingham Yeast (~5.0% to 5.2%)

Kegged:
6 Gallons Honey Ale AG

Next:
6 Gallons Brown Sugar Lager

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Old 11-14-2010, 04:07 PM   #37
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What was the starting time in each of your latest tables? 8:47 and 9:25?

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Old 11-14-2010, 04:20 PM   #38
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No! These results do not reflect each other.

Pimento's cider was dry, with just enough priming sugar added to achieve carbonation. It makes sense that it would take a week to two weeks to carbonate. With less sugar in solution, the yeast have a harder time finding it and consuming it. It's the same principle that causes wine and mead to ferment 90% relatively quick, but often that last 10% takes time, usually in an actual secondary vessel. It's the same reason a beer can ferment out in as little as 3 days, but will take a week or two weeks to carbonate because the yeast has settled, there are fewer cells in the bottles, and less sugar added back in.


RukusDM's cider was sweet.... what, like 1.012... and wasn't cold crashed to drop cells, and then even more sugar added to prime. Just because you both had similar results in the time it took to carbonate does not mean you've replicated each other's experiments. I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around those results. I urge you to repeat this experiment before you draw any conclusions. I once bottled beer with a filthy tube that I didn't sanitize, I also used my mouth to create the siphon, and didn't use mouthwash first. I got no infection. That does not mean it's acceptable practice.

I don't want to crap on your work, I enjoy and appreciate it, especially the water bath temp/time curves.

I think you need to do more research before you draw any conclusions. And as a pessimist, I believe you'll find too many variables that you can't control that will swing the results every time.

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Old 11-14-2010, 04:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch78 View Post
No! These results do not reflect each other.

Pimento's cider was dry, with just enough priming sugar added to achieve carbonation. It makes sense that it would take a week to two weeks to carbonate. With less sugar in solution, the yeast have a harder time finding it and consuming it. It's the same principle that causes wine and mead to ferment 90% relatively quick, but often that last 10% takes time, usually in an actual secondary vessel. It's the same reason a beer can ferment out in as little as 3 days, but will take a week or two weeks to carbonate because the yeast has settled, there are fewer cells in the bottles, and less sugar added back in.


RukusDM's cider was sweet.... what, like 1.012... and wasn't cold crashed to drop cells, and then even more sugar added to prime. Just because you both had similar results in the time it took to carbonate does not mean you've replicated each other's experiments. I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around those results. I urge you to repeat this experiment before you draw any conclusions. I once bottled beer with a filthy tube that I didn't sanitize, I also used my mouth to create the siphon, and didn't use mouthwash first. I got no infection. That does not mean it's acceptable practice.

I don't want to crap on your work, I enjoy and appreciate it, especially the water bath temp/time curves.

I think you need to do more research before you draw any conclusions. And as a pessimist, I believe you'll find too many variables that you can't control that will swing the results every time.
Well its true the testing isn't complete, however I didn't make these numbers up. Perhaps you could do some testing to verify?
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Primary's:
#1 - 5 Gallons Harp Clone All Grain with Wyeast 2007 Lager (~5.5% ABV)

Secondary's:
#1 - 6 Gallons Dry Irish Stout Partial (~4.0 ABV)
#2 - 6 Gallons Brown Sugar Ale All Grain with Nottingham Yeast (~5.0% to 5.2%)

Kegged:
6 Gallons Honey Ale AG

Next:
6 Gallons Brown Sugar Lager

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Old 11-14-2010, 04:27 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch78 View Post
What was the starting time in each of your latest tables? 8:47 and 9:25?
Yes, those were the times.
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Primary's:
#1 - 5 Gallons Harp Clone All Grain with Wyeast 2007 Lager (~5.5% ABV)

Secondary's:
#1 - 6 Gallons Dry Irish Stout Partial (~4.0 ABV)
#2 - 6 Gallons Brown Sugar Ale All Grain with Nottingham Yeast (~5.0% to 5.2%)

Kegged:
6 Gallons Honey Ale AG

Next:
6 Gallons Brown Sugar Lager

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