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-   -   100% brett cider (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/100-brett-cider-390117/)

levifunk 02-14-2013 08:24 PM

100% brett cider
 
I'm thinking about doing a panel of 100% brett fermented ciders. A few single strains, a few multiple strains, and a few of both with lacto/pedio added.

Here is the list of fermentations I came up with:
1.) 100% Brett B
2.) 100% Brett C
3.) 100% Brett L
4.) 100% Brett Drie
5.) Brett B,C,L
6.) 100% Brett B & LAB
7.) 100% Brett C & LAB
8.) 100% Brett L & LAB
9.) 100% Brett Drie & LAB
10.)Brett B,C,L & LAB

("LAB" is Lactic Acid Bacteria, which is the lacto/pedio)

Let me know if you've done one of these and the results.
Any of these sound particularly exciting?
Any of them sound like trouble?
Any other fermentation ideas?

gregbathurst 02-14-2013 08:34 PM

Brett is a very weak fermenter, it can have a big sensory effect when it is only a small part of the total yeast population. I thought in beer it is only used as a secondary fermenter of unfermented sugars. If you only pitch brett there is a good chance wild yeast will take over the ferment, which is possibly a good thing. Same thing goes for LAB.

levifunk 02-14-2013 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregbathurst (Post 4904299)
Brett is a very weak fermenter, it can have a big sensory effect when it is only a small part of the total yeast population. I thought in beer it is only used as a secondary fermenter of unfermented sugars. If you only pitch brett there is a good chance wild yeast will take over the ferment, which is possibly a good thing. Same thing goes for LAB.

You need to look into Crooked Stave and www.brettanomycesproject.com

LeBreton 02-14-2013 08:40 PM

Very ambitious! No real advice, but I'm looking forward to hearing about your results.

I've got an upcoming trial with Brett too, but nothing so studious.

MidTNJasonF 02-14-2013 08:52 PM

WLP 644 Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois or Brett Trois

Had a couple beers 100% fermented with this recently and the results were very nice. Had a single hop (Columbus) IPA that was done with the Brett Trois and is was outstanding. Smooth and clean, just a little dry and just a touch of fruitiness. I am not sure how it would do in a cider but I would not mind finding out.

gregbathurst 02-14-2013 09:51 PM

That brettanomyces project was done under lab conditions, and with beer not cider. The guy admits that even under those conditions brett was weaker than brewers yeast. A pH of nearly 5 is a lot different to cider. When the pH gets lower the brett will struggle even more. I'm not saying don't use brett, ferments with natural yeast are usually pretty good.

levifunk 02-15-2013 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregbathurst (Post 4904558)
That brettanomyces project was done under lab conditions, and with beer not cider. The guy admits that even under those conditions brett was weaker than brewers yeast. A pH of nearly 5 is a lot different to cider. When the pH gets lower the brett will struggle even more. I'm not saying don't use brett, ferments with natural yeast are usually pretty good.

No. Given that brett is continually working in Lambics as they age (and have already dropped pH level), I don't buy that brett will struggle in cider due to pH. Chad Yakobson says that brett is slower to start and therefor requires a larger pitch, but I don't remember ever hearing that brett is weaker, and I think once it takes off it ferments faster than saccharo. If anything, brett is far less finicky than saccharo. And brett will eat ANY sugar available, where saccharo only eats simple sugars.

Dropping brett into cider will be child's play fermentation for it. All simple sugars, it will eat it dry in no time.

gregbathurst 02-15-2013 04:05 AM

Well I would equate slower with weaker. Wyeast say "The lactic acid cultures and the Brettanomyces cultures are both slow growing cultures that have complex nutritional requirements which makes growing and maintaining the cultures problematic. It is extremely important that brewers using these cultures understand that the beer will take 1 to 2 years to develop the desired characteristics."
You are using a culture meant for beer and expecting to get the same results for cider, a very different medium. I call that wishful thinking, or more accurately magical thinking. Just because you want it to happen doesn't mean it will happen. That's not to say you won't get a decent cider if you are using good juice.

levifunk 02-15-2013 04:36 AM

Slow growing does not equate to slow fermentation. Growth refers to the rate the cells multiply. This is why higher pitches are recommended for 100% brett. Again, read up on brettanomyces project and other presentations from Chad Yakobson....a lot of good info. There are two here: http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.c...rslambics.html

Your copied statement from Wyeast is from their Lambic brewing section....which is very different than 100% brett fermentation.

I have no expectations. I think the wide panel I've chosen would have shown you this is obviously an experiment. Further hint would be me coming and asking if anyone has had good/bad experience with any of these strains in cider. I also do not expect to get the same flavor profiles from a strain of brett in cider as one would get in beer. However, I would be surprised if there weren't similarities. This is not "magical" thinking.

gregbathurst 02-15-2013 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by levifunk (Post 4905758)
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.c...rslambics.html

Your copied statement from Wyeast is from their Lambic brewing section....which is very different than 100% brett fermentation.

When I pitch a saccohromyces culture into cider I have no expectation that I will get a 100% sac ferment. Even though sac has been selected for strong fermentations in wine and cider I know there will be other wild yeasts there, but the sac will dominate, because that is what it is selected for. If you pitch a brett culture, it hasn't been selected for cider at all, and you have no way of knowing how it will perform. The wild yeasts will be able to establish and consume much of the sugar, the brett may establish well or maybe not. You won't know what population of brett you are inoculating with, and you won't know how well it multiplies. The only conclusion you will be able to reach is whether you made a good cider or not. Any variation between batches may be due to the brett cultures, or maybe the wild yeasts which get established.


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