Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > Fermenters > Conical Electric Copper/Settling Vessel with Recirculation
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-14-2012, 04:44 PM   #1
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default Conical Electric Copper/Settling Vessel with Recirculation

This thread is to document my design /build of a conical Electric Copper and Settling vessel.

After reading Brewing Science and Practice I have decide have the following options.

1) Conical Settling tank
2) pump to recirculate during boil (return to scatter cone)
3) ability to control evaporation rate
4) heat exchanger cooling
5) closed lid operation for settling
6) rotating arm to enable wort transfer above trub level.

Joel

__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-15-2012, 12:26 AM   #2
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

For the copper: looking at
http://www.toledometalspinning.com/s...ainless-steel/

with the standard top,
http://www.toledometalspinning.com/s...opper-x-304ss/

__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-16-2012, 12:21 PM   #3
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

An update to the design. Any suggestions?

1) The vent at the top allows for control over evaporation rate
2) Provision for re-circulation during the boil to speed things along
3) centrifuge during chilling
4) let the trube settle out
5) divert to the fermenter.

Joel

copper.jpg  
__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2012, 01:14 PM   #4
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Running some numbers, and may move to a external electric Calandria based on the heat tape approach. If I add a parallel stage to the two elements I have for my mash system, I should have about 2400 Watts using 4 tubes. I will run the unit on two dedicated GFI 110 circuits.

This would pull the heater out of the boiling vessel.

Time to think about the plumbing of the system.

__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-18-2012, 09:56 PM   #5
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Here are the calculations....

Roughly:
Gallons*(220-Temp_coming_from_mash)/(372*Time)*1000 --> required watts.

for 150 degree water from the mash, we get something like-->
Gallons --> Time to boil (in minutes)
6 --> 28.22580645
7 --> 32.93010753
8 --> 37.6344086
9 --> 42.33870968
10 --> 47.04301075
11 --> 51.74731183
12 --> 56.4516129

Okay, since I normally do 5 gallon batches, I am happy with 2400 watts, and two 110 20 amp GFI circuits.

I can use the same heating element and pump for both my RIMS and the boil.

I have to think about how the unit could fail to make it safe. I think a stuck circulation will result in a rapid temp rise on the tubes, so a thermal fuse (Like on the RIMS tube) next to the pipes would prevent a melt down.

Any thoughts?

Joel

__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2012, 10:00 PM   #6
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

I think this is the build.

One pump and heater for the rims and copper. I should be able to switch the temp sensors and use one PID for the system.

Joel

build.jpg  
__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-23-2012, 08:37 PM   #7
audger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: ., Connecticut
Posts: 1,497
Liked 40 Times on 40 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

interesting ideas. i hate to make you keep talking to yourself in here, so ill add my two cents.
depending on the actual implimentation, i could see this working out OK, or possibly working out not very well. heres some of my reasoning...

-i dont think that your calandria is going to do anything besides get in the way at best, or cause problems for your pump at worst. calandrias in large breweries operate under a pressure differential which is created by the weight of the liquid column. in a 20 barrel tank, there will be many PSI difference between the top and bottom, so that the flow is self-regulated in a single direction. in a small 15 gallon pot, there is barely 1psi of difference, so the water is not compressed (and the boiling point isnt sufficiently raised) in the heater, and the flow is not self regulated in a single direction. meaning if wort were to boil in the heater, it could more easily overwhelm the pump and cause the flow to go backwards.

-the relatively large volume of liquid below the pump and heater is going to be fairly stagnant (especially if filled with trub or protein precipitate or other solid particles, making the fluid in this area thicker). this area could possibly retain wort that hasnt had the DMS adequately evaporated, and could effect flavor of resulting beer if it were to mix after boiling.

-your kettle opening/vent is undersized (atleast in the drawings). in large breweries, the updraft of hot air, or alternaltely a fan, gives a large amount of suction up the exhaust stack. in your smaller kettle, there is going to be very little updraft, and the only amount of air movement is going to be caused by the volume of steam created by boiling (no suction). also, this promotes condensation, which if left to drip back into the kettle, pretty much negates the whole reason for boiling in the first place (reduction of DMS; it will recondense and just drip back in).

__________________
audger is offline
rosienej Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-24-2012, 01:09 AM   #8
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by audger View Post
interesting ideas. i hate to make you keep talking to yourself in here, so ill add my two cents.
depending on the actual implimentation, i could see this working out OK, or possibly working out not very well. heres some of my reasoning...

-i dont think that your calandria is going to do anything besides get in the way at best, or cause problems for your pump at worst. calandrias in large breweries operate under a pressure differential which is created by the weight of the liquid column. in a 20 barrel tank, there will be many PSI difference between the top and bottom, so that the flow is self-regulated in a single direction. in a small 15 gallon pot, there is barely 1psi of difference, so the water is not compressed (and the boiling point isnt sufficiently raised) in the heater, and the flow is not self regulated in a single direction. meaning if wort were to boil in the heater, it could more easily overwhelm the pump and cause the flow to go backwards.

-the relatively large volume of liquid below the pump and heater is going to be fairly stagnant (especially if filled with trub or protein precipitate or other solid particles, making the fluid in this area thicker). this area could possibly retain wort that hasnt had the DMS adequately evaporated, and could effect flavor of resulting beer if it were to mix after boiling.

-your kettle opening/vent is undersized (atleast in the drawings). in large breweries, the updraft of hot air, or alternaltely a fan, gives a large amount of suction up the exhaust stack. in your smaller kettle, there is going to be very little updraft, and the only amount of air movement is going to be caused by the volume of steam created by boiling (no suction). also, this promotes condensation, which if left to drip back into the kettle, pretty much negates the whole reason for boiling in the first place (reduction of DMS; it will recondense and just drip back in).
Thanks!!! I needed this feedback, and missed the pressure difference entirely. Time for a re(more)think.

Thanks again.
__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2012, 08:24 PM   #9
audger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: ., Connecticut
Posts: 1,497
Liked 40 Times on 40 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

one thing i have seen that works pretty well (though i couldnt find any actual pictures of) is a boil kettle that has a small dish recessed into the bottom. something like this crappy paint drawing....


the idea is that when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, the cone of trub in the center collects in this dish, and it helps even more to keep it contained as you drain the kettle. the size and volume of this dish should be carefully considered. i half remember reading that the diameter of the dish should be about 1/3rd of the diameter of the kettle, and then the depth of the dish would be determined by the normal amount of solids you have left over. so if you have 1/2 a gallon of trub normally, you can calculate the depth you would need to hold that volume, given the diameter.

its not as extreme as a pointed cone, so there should still be a fair amount of circulation during the boil. just remember that you will need to adjust your brew profile to take this extra space and extra wasted wort into account. you dont want it to be too large or you will just be throwing away wort at the end. too small and you risk getting extra particulate into the fermentor.

__________________
audger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-08-2012, 01:16 AM   #10
rosienej
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Colchester, CT
Posts: 160
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by audger View Post
one thing i have seen that works pretty well (though i couldnt find any actual pictures of) is a boil kettle that has a small dish recessed into the bottom. something like this crappy paint drawing....


the idea is that when you whirlpool at the end of the boil, the cone of trub in the center collects in this dish, and it helps even more to keep it contained as you drain the kettle. the size and volume of this dish should be carefully considered. i half remember reading that the diameter of the dish should be about 1/3rd of the diameter of the kettle, and then the depth of the dish would be determined by the normal amount of solids you have left over. so if you have 1/2 a gallon of trub normally, you can calculate the depth you would need to hold that volume, given the diameter.

its not as extreme as a pointed cone, so there should still be a fair amount of circulation during the boil. just remember that you will need to adjust your brew profile to take this extra space and extra wasted wort into account. you dont want it to be too large or you will just be throwing away wort at the end. too small and you risk getting extra particulate into the fermentor.
Thanks. Got busy, but plan to get back to this soon.

Joel
__________________
rosienej is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Single Vessel, All Electric, NS, NC Brewery ScubaSteve Equipment/Sanitation 537 11-26-2012 01:10 AM
Bottling from a v-vessel conical fermenter. How to prime? dub Bottling/Kegging 1 06-12-2011 11:56 PM
Sold - Single-tier three-vessel electric brewery samuelpeter For Sale 17 05-28-2011 04:05 PM
For Sale - WANTED: Vessel or other conical fermenter flyweed For Sale 1 01-10-2010 05:09 AM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS