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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > DIY Projects > Chillers and Stir Plates > DIY convoluted copper
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:50 PM   #31
Vesku
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I wanted to make a whirlpool kettle that I could use to cool the wort as well. To get the whirlpool going small diameter tubing is not an option. I had some 15mm soft copper handy and came out with an idea how to make the grooves ... it's boring to go the easy way I've noticed that, if I think too much beforehand, so many problems will arise that I just end up drinking beer and doing nothing

I only had a couple of goes with the kettle, before I had to sell my gear, but it worked really nice. I cooled 5 gal patch from boiling in about 5 minutes even with relatively warm tap water that we have during the summer. I also wanted to try hopping during the whirlpool and cooling (sort of poor man's hopback variation). I think that the aroma of the beers was stronger, but it all maybe just my imagination too.

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by TerraNova View Post
I agree with not quite getting the benefit of recirculating if a single pass would make you reach pitching temp.
I was talking more about guys who use multipass because a single pass won't do it, which is the case in much of the south. Might as well use an IC in those cases.

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It means more things touching your wort as it is cooled which risks infection. It also means you still have to transfer your chilled wort into your fermenting vessel after it is cooled instead of transferring it while cooling it. And since I do a secondary fermentation, I would leave all the cold break behind with the yeast/trub at that point. While cold break in the fermentation tank doesn't hurt the beer, some say it actually helps fermentation (I can't back that claim up though).
Everything is fairly sanitary post boil in the chill path if recircing a CFC.
RE: Cold break- It is supposed to have some benefits for the growth phase, but after that it's supposed to get ejected. This is why brewers, and homebrew conical owners, do a trub dump after 24-48 hours. Taste some beer decanted off the trub pile left after you rack to secondary. I have done it, and it is not pleasant. I doubt the trub pile has some magic property that prevents that flavor from spreading into the rest of the beer.

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The CFC advantage to me is that I switch batch sizes often. I have tried using a smaller IC that was designed for 5 gallon batches on a 10 gallon batch which barely worked (took forever).
Thats not fair. A CFC should take exactly twice as long for a 10G vs. 5G. If your IC performance was so poor, your CFC shouldn't have been that great either using the same tap temp. Were you agitating the wort with the IC? It makes a massive difference.

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And when I tried a bigger IC designed for 10 gallon batches about 35-40% of the coils sat above the top of wort in a 5 gallon batch...which didn't hurt the cooling but since I couldn't submerge all of it during the boil it opened it up to infection as an unboiled item was in my wort. Yes, you can sanitize it before placing it in the wort (or try spooning boiling wort over the exposed coils, I guess), which is an extra step (your are sanitizing you transfer lines with an IC anyway, just like you would sanitize a CFC)
But how do you know whether your CFC is actually clean. FUD!

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A CFC seems to be the right solution for doing any batch size and seems easiest to protect against infections.
An oversized CFC can provide better cooling for smaller batches than an oversized IC (that doesn't submerge completely).
Easiest to protect against infections is more than stretch. See FUD above.

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As far as pre-chillers go, if your tap water is warm you really have to use it one with either style of apparatus to get down to the temps you may want.
Yes, but with an IC all you do is run with tap water 'til it plateaus, then switch to an ice bath recirc for the last bit until you hit your temp. It does require a pump of some kind, but nothing fancy.
With a CFC single pass, you have to pre-chill the input somehow, and maintain a fairly precise input temp, or your output temp will go all over the place unless you sit there adjusting throughput. It's not as simple thing to do.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:02 PM   #33
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I was talking more about guys who use multipass because a single pass won't do it, which is the case in much of the south. Might as well use an IC in those cases.
Or use a prechiller. We have warm tap water in CA and the CFC's I have seen in use get it in one pass. But if you are running into the problem you describe and don't have a PC, then yes, you have to recirc. But that has yet to be a problem for the ones I have seen even in hot summers in CA.

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Everything is fairly sanitary post boil in the chill path if recircing a CFC.
But in a single pass you aren't recircing, so you have to sanitize it...just like you would sanitize your transfer lines using an IC. No additional steps. device vs device...so far


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Thats not fair. A CFC should take exactly twice as long for a 10G vs. 5G.
Fair? Fair has nothing to do with it...it's a reality. When I have used a 5 gallon IC on a 10 gallon batch, yes, IT DID TAKE TWICE AS LONG. Which is too long. And of course I agitated the wort using the IC. However, by having to stand over 10 gallons of recently boiling wort with my hand half way in the kettle stirring steaming wort for almost 30 minutes worrying the whole time that I might drop a bead of sweat or lint from my shirt or any myriad other contaminants into my wort, I am not sure I wasn't the one that was being agitated. So much for your simplicity trumping all theory.

So either I have to preform that lame task or have two IC's, one for each batch size, actually you still have to agitate with each size. Pure simplicity is sanitizing a CFC the same way you would you transfer lines and turn on a ball valve to transfer/chill your wort. Instead you are claiming that standing over your wort for even 15 minutes to agitate it (and yourself), not to mention greater risk contamination is somehow more simple? FUD

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If your IC performance was so poor, your CFC shouldn't have been that great either using the same tap temp.
Sorry that just isn't correct. I have used my IC for years, many years, and my friend converted me to CFC's in one single demo. He let me borrow his CFC and in my brewing enviro it chilled in a single pass. I was able to transfer/chill my wort in under ten minutes. With my IC had to chill for 15 then transfer. (I know not a true apples to apples comparison but it was actually later in the summer so the CFC had a theoretical disadvantage but worked better)

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But how do you know whether your CFC is actually clean. FUD!
Sigh. The point I was making was that it was fewer steps to insure sanitation in a CFC. I can counter with how do you know your transfer lines are actually clean? Comparing those two parts is equal. And if you are recircing your boiling wort thru your transfer lines to sanitize and still manually agitating your wort with your IC...I dont see it being any simpler, at all. Doing a sanitation flush on a CFC is easier than manually agitating wort with an IC for 15 minutes. For me at least.


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Easiest to protect against infections is more than stretch. See FUD above.
Agree to disagree. You are chilling your wort by standing over it and agitating hoping nothing migrates into the wort during the agitation...then transferring through sanitized lines. I know, I did it for a decade and a half that way. A CFC meanwhile is just doing the transfer step. The line is routed thru the CFC and therefore is closed. Boiling wort transfered chilled into your fermenter.

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Originally Posted by cwi View Post
Yes, but with an IC all you do is run with tap water 'til it plateaus, then switch to an ice bath recirc for the last bit until you hit your temp. It does require a pump of some kind, but nothing fancy.
With a CFC single pass, you have to pre-chill the input somehow, and maintain a fairly precise input temp, or your output temp will go all over the place unless you sit there adjusting throughput. It's not as simple thing to do.
FUD overload...how is using tap water then switching to a pumped ice bath easier than placing a pre-chiller inline with your coolant water and forgetting about it. On really hot days I am planning to place my old IC (which already has hose fittings) in a bucket of ice and running my coolant water from the hose thru the IC (in the ice bath) and then through the cold side of my CFC. How is that any harder than switching inputs mid cooldown and then pumping water into it. To do it the way you are describing (which I have done) requires a pump (a second pump if you are also recircing your wort) as well as the ice vessel. Again, your simplicity point is losing footing. Not to mention that if you are returning the water to the ice bath, that has absorbed thermal energy from a run though the IC, the ice bath with begin to warm up. You will be wasting that resource before some of it is even used.

Then again, if it works for you...cheers.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:16 AM   #34
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Latest try, I haven't had a change to test it yet to see how efficient it is, but I'm sure it's OK for CF-HERMS. Nice and compact with the straight pipe's. I'll make a longer one for cooling, I think I'll make it in a shape of a triangle or a cube and use 180 capillary angles instead of bending the inner pipe...

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Old 09-04-2013, 04:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesku
Latest try, I haven't had a change to test it yet to see how efficient it is, but I'm sure it's OK for CF-HERMS. Nice and compact with the straight pipe's. I'll make a longer one for cooling, I think I'll make it in a shape of a triangle or a cube and use 180 capillary angles instead of bending the inner pipe...
So are both the inner and outer pipes convoluted?
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:51 PM   #36
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Yes, 15mm + 22mm copper.

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