HERMS Step Mash Question?

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Douglefish

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I just build a HERMS system, that is similiar to the Pols. Main difference being that I use a seperate 1.5 gallon heat exchanger instead of my HLT. While I don't plan on doing step mashes all that much, I would like to know if it is feasible.

It hear that with a 10 gallon batch and the time needed to recirculate the hot wort you get about 1 degree per minute in the MLT. So to go from a protein rest in the upper 120s to 150 would take about 25 minutes.

People talk about this as if it's a bad thing, but never real explain why? Is it simply the time required or does it have negative impacts on the beer? Or is it simply a control issue? Are you really converting some of the starches when going through the 40s and your target conversion temp was say 153?

Another question is, could I just dump boiling water on top of the mash tun to raise the temp in conjunction with the heat exchanger.

Thanks in Advance!!!
 
IMHO, with today's fully-modified malts, protein rests are really a waste of time. Dumping boiling water on your mash will tend to kill the enzymes that are converting the starches into sugar.
 
I regularly use protein rests. I do them, with boiling water infusion, decoction, and direct firing.

Adding small portions of boiling wort will do nothing to your enzymes. It is a traditional German technique used to both raise temps and to thin the mash at various times to help certain enzymes.

Decoctions are nice but time consuming.

Direct fired is fine, but with my non-automated system (for now) it is a bit tricky to hit my numbers exactly.

All techniques have pluses and minuses.

You will be able to use your HERMS for step mashes no problem and if you tune your PID controller properly you should be able to step WAY faster than 1º/min
 
What about a beer that uses a lot of wheat malt?

I don't think it matters. Some German less modified malts may benefit from a protein rest. Palmer claims that a protein rest on a fully modified malt can remove some of the body from the beer.

Here is an except from "How to Brew" by John Palmer.

Chapter 14 - How the Mash Works

14.4 The Protein Rest and Modification

Modification is the term that describes the degree of breakdown during malting of the protein-starch matrix (endosperm) that comprises the bulk of the seed. Moderately-modified malts benefit from a protein rest to break down any remnant large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as to further release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today is fully modified. Less modified malts are often available from German maltsters. Brewers have reported fuller, maltier flavors from malts that are less modified and make use of this rest.
 
... I was shuttering because if you do a search for step mashing and herms, you'll find more than a few fairly heated debates on every aspect of this topic. Opinions rnge from "yes, I'm doing it now with my herms system" to "no you're not because it is impossible" and everything in between.

There is a fair amount of variance in people's opinion on how long the step takes and what that will do to your mash (stepping very quickly vs dragging your mash through a long range of temp as you step... as you mention above). Does it hurt your mash to overshoot in the heat exchanger before returning to the mash? Do the laws of thermodynamics ALLOW you to efficiently step up without overshooting...

etc etc etc... and like I was saying, it's gotten kinda heated in the past, especially when you have such a huge range of opinions....

... layered on top of ALL of that is the above debate: is it even worth it
 
Pol does not use a PID for his HERMS (at least I don't think so). But basically you can tune a PID controller so that it recognizes your system and can account for thermal momentum (not really but it makes more sense saying it like that). Basically, you can crank the heat in your HERMS and the controller will realize when to stop adding heat so your system does not overshoot.

What kind of controller are you using?
 
I agree that protein rests should not be extended because theoretically they will damage head stability.

However, I often use protein rests and have produced beers with which I could build walls with the resulting foam.
 
Pol does not use a PID for his HERMS (at least I don't think so). But basically you can tune a PID controller so that it recognizes your system and can account for thermal momentum (not really but it makes more sense saying it like that). Basically, you can crank the heat in your HERMS and the controller will realize when to stop adding heat so your system does not overshoot.

What kind of controller are you using?

This is all correct... but... just to give the distinction between what the sniffer is saying by "overshoot" and what I said with "overshoot"

... he means that a PID will basically stop jacking up heat to the mash when the mash reaches a certain temp... avoiding an "overshoot"

... I mean... to ACHIEVE that certain temp, you need to apply heat in such a way that the overall mash temperature rises. As an example, say you're stepping up top 155 degrees..... what temp do you set your heat exchanger at? 155? If you do that, it'll take (theoretically) a really long time to make that step. Or do you set it at 200? So the liquid IN the heat exchanger is suddenly jacked up to 200 (or close to it) and then returned to the mash. That would bring the temp over the overall mash up much faster... BUT... you're "overshooting" during the heat exchange.
 
What's the down side of jacking the temp up to 200, and then backing it off when you are within a few degrees of the desired temp? I don't want to rehash this for everyone either, if anyone knows of another thread that discusses this let me know.

Thanks
 
This is one of them that I was involved with

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/stepping-herms-115142/

... but like I was saying, you can do a quick search and find a couple more.

And to your question about hte downside of jacking it up to 200 and then backing off... that's one of the debated topics. Some people don't think it hurts the enzymes at all given how quick it is... others feel it'll destroy certain enzymes... ok, then is there a temp that DOESN'T kill the enzymes? And what is the time frame in which the enzymes will be destroyed?

... it's an ugly topic and everyone has a view.


(now you're getting a hint why I made the first post I did on this thread)
 
Escalator Mashing

I know that it is the commonly used term but I think “Step Mashing” is a misnomer. With a HERMS/RIMS you don’t go directly to the next temp, you pass through all the temps on the way as well. This is more like an escalator. Another thing to consider is that while optimal temperature ranges are generally observed, enzymes will work both above and below them. I think the real concern should be the batch to batch reproducibility when “step” mashing. If your parameters are not similar (ambient temp, flow rates, etc.) your ramp rates will also vary. Although you eventually get to your desired temp, the time you spent on the way allowed varying amounts of enzymatic activity. To ensure the best shot at reproducibility, the critical process parameters must be controlled.

With regard to denaturation, while it is true that enzymes will lose their structure and activity at elevated temperatures, unless the time at temp and temp itself is long and or high, they will refold and regain their activity. The comment that adding boiling water/wort to mash will destroy the enzymes (in the mash) is not correct. If it were, decoction wouldn’t still be around. In the article below, Alpha Amylase was incubated for 15 minutes at 90C and 50% of the enzymatic activity still remained. While I’m not recommending a temp setting of 90C, it does go to show the rugged nature of life. Hey, some thermophiles can live in at temps up to 105C. The short time spent in your HEX won’t do that much damage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1133484/pdf/biochemj00196-0049.pdf
 
... I mean... to ACHIEVE that certain temp, you need to apply heat in such a way that the overall mash temperature rises. As an example, say you're stepping up top 155 degrees..... what temp do you set your heat exchanger at? 155? If you do that, it'll take (theoretically) a really long time to make that step. Or do you set it at 200? So the liquid IN the heat exchanger is suddenly jacked up to 200 (or close to it) and then returned to the mash. That would bring the temp over the overall mash up much faster... BUT... you're "overshooting" during the heat exchange.

In my system the temperature of the wort at its hottest is only ever at the temperature I set the PID controller. I achieve this by putting the thermocouple at the output of the heat exchanger and using the PID to control the heating element in the heat exchanger. By having a small seperate heat exchanger rather than using the HLT you can get the returned wort to the set temperature very quickly. Obvously the mash takes a bit longer to reach that temperature but at no time does any wort go beyond that set temperature.

The temperature of the water in the heat exchanger does go higher but that doesn't matter because it's the temperature of the wort measured as it leaves the heat exchanger that counts.

I do agree that raising the temperature of the wort at any time to 200 degrees would be a bad idea.

/Phil.
 
If your PID is measuring the exiting wort temp and controlling the element based on that temp, how is it that you can have separate temps? Are you not getting full heat extraction in your coil? Is your flow rate too fast or coil too short?
While I understand the benefits of using a smaller HEX over a HLT, it seems that the exiting wort should be at the same temp at the liquid. Smaller HEX can just be adjusted faster than the large volume of the HLT.
 
It's because the coil is fairly short. Getting "full heat extraction" isn't of interest to me. What is is the wort temperature.

Typically the temperature of the water in the heat exchanger is a couple of degrees hotter. We're not talking a big difference. Once the mash reaches temperature they converge.

/Phil.
 
yup... that is one way folks seemed to have been able to accomplish a relatively quick step using a HERMS. Not sure why some folks refused to beleive it on other threads.


eh... either way.
 
Escalator Mashing

I know that it is the commonly used term but I think “Step Mashing” is a misnomer. With a HERMS/RIMS you don’t go directly to the next temp, you pass through all the temps on the way as well. This is more like an escalator. Another thing to consider is that while optimal temperature ranges are generally observed, enzymes will work both above and below them. I think the real concern should be the batch to batch reproducibility when “step” mashing. If your parameters are not similar (ambient temp, flow rates, etc.) your ramp rates will also vary. Although you eventually get to your desired temp, the time you spent on the way allowed varying amounts of enzymatic activity. To ensure the best shot at reproducibility, the critical process parameters must be controlled.

With regard to denaturation, while it is true that enzymes will lose their structure and activity at elevated temperatures, unless the time at temp and temp itself is long and or high, they will refold and regain their activity. The comment that adding boiling water/wort to mash will destroy the enzymes (in the mash) is not correct. If it were, decoction wouldn’t still be around. In the article below, Alpha Amylase was incubated for 15 minutes at 90C and 50% of the enzymatic activity still remained. While I’m not recommending a temp setting of 90C, it does go to show the rugged nature of life. Hey, some thermophiles can live in at temps up to 105C. The short time spent in your HEX won’t do that much damage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1133484/pdf/biochemj00196-0049.pdf

I don't understand why decoction is still around with todays well modified malts. There are caveats to decoction that would make me not consider it.

* The traditional decoction methods are designed for very poor quality malts, for amateur brewers this is not an issue because it is almost impossible to get these poor malts nowadays.

* Splashing the hot mash may cause some additional HSA.

* The mash could be scortched when it is boiled

* pH must be checked and corrected to avoid extraction of tannins from the husks

* Boiling the grains the last time may release some more starch that will not be converted because you've just wiped out the enzymes.
 
I’ve never done a decoction mash but have always wanted to try to see how the flavors would differ. (maybe one day I’ll do a side by side to taste for myself) Even though you are irreversibly denaturing some of your enzymes, there are still plenty left to complete the job. I would think the biggest benefit to a decoction mash would be the caramelization effect from the boil. You could even argue if you boil in a kettle with a burner, an electric element or hot rocks you’d have slightly different beer.
 
I can step up @ 4* per minute with my herms unit which has a convoluted copper coil in the hlt.

Those saying protein rests are not needed because malt is highly modified, have not bought belguin or german bulk grain and read the analysis reports.

I suggest that you learn how to read and understand what highly modified malt really is, and get an analysis report on the malt you are using, before you just make stupid statements.

"Turbo" type malts are made for a single infusion only. Most other malts can be doughed in and are rested more then you think at 122-131* and slowly brought up to sac rest temps in micro breweries.

Multiple rests on certain styles are needed to come out with the right profile. it is very beneficial to the final product.

Guys that brew with cooler always try to tell you a protein rest will ruin your beer or multi eests are not needed which just isn't true. If you have the proper equipment, I say try it for yourself before listening to people saying it can't or shouldn't be done.

I decocted brews that stay at those low temperatures for a long period of time, and have never had problems with brews becoming to thin from protein rests.
 
I can step up @ 4* per minute with my herms unit which has a convoluted copper coil in the hlt.

Those saying protein rests are not needed because malt is highly modified, have not bought belguin or german bulk grain and read the analysis reports.

I suggest that you learn how to read and understand what highly modified malt really is, and get an analysis report on the malt you are using, before you just make stupid statements.

"Turbo" type malts are made for a single infusion only. Most other malts can be doughed in and are rested more then you think at 122-131* and slowly brought up to sac rest temps in micro breweries.

Multiple rests on certain styles are needed to come out with the right profile. it is very beneficial to the final product.

Guys that brew with cooler always try to tell you a protein rest will ruin your beer or multi eests are not needed which just isn't true. If you have the proper equipment, I say try it for yourself before listening to people saying it can't or shouldn't be done.

I decocted brews that stay at those low temperatures for a long period of time, and have never had problems with brews becoming to thin from protein rests.

You sure do like to make a fool out of yourself in from of others, don't you? Some pretty strong words from a newbie who just joined the forum. Not going to make many friends here by calling someone stupid.

It is obvious that you just skimmed over post #6. Reread post #6 where I even quote from John Palmers book "How To Brew" to lend credibility to my opinion. Where does your credibility come from except for, "I say so". In post #6, I even state "Some German less modified malts may benefit from a protein rest". Then, I guess you think you know more about brewing than John Palmer does. Most of the Malts I use have DBFG's >78% and <60 °Lintner. Here is a good article for you to read: http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/noonan.html. It would be a good article for you to read so you don't have to extract your foot from your mouth next time.

You make assumptions about my brewing setup that isn't even close to being true. I do not use a cooler.

I have also tried step mashing and found that while it did not hurt the beer, I get a fuller bodied beer with a simple infusion mash. My opinion still is: it didn't buy me much, so for me, it is a waste of time.

As for decoction, there are many caveats, so I choose not to use it as a technique. I understand the technique and there are a number of brewers in my brew club that are very good at decoction mashing. They happen to make exceptionally good beer. It's just not for me because I don't want to deal with the caveats and because I have a RIMS controlled by a PID. Temperature control is not an issue with my brewery.

To me, the taste of the beer is more important than bragging that "I use step mashing". If you use step mashing and you like your beer, I am happy for you, but don't make a childish and immature remark like:

"I suggest that you learn how to read and understand what highly modified malt really is, and get an analysis report on the malt you are using, before you just make stupid statements". I still can't believe a 63 year old women could post an attack like this. If you dissagree with me, say so, but to call me stupid, lets just say I would expect more maturity than you have shown, from a child.

You state, "I decocted brews that stay at those low temperatures for a long period of time, and have never had problems with brews becoming to thin from protein rests". Decoction has nothing to do with protein rests. Decoction is for temperature control. It differs from the normal 'step-infusion' mash only in the way the heat is applied. That statement alone, puts your credibility in doubt. My opinion is backed up by a well known brewing expert who goes by the name of John Palmer, someone who you seem to think doesn't anything know anything about brewing.

Here is my brewery, and look ma, no cooler.......Hint: Look at someones gallery before laying fingers to keyboard.

Now I suggest go have a look in the mirror and see who the "stupid" one is.

black dog1.jpg
 
My HERMS will absolutely NOT step mash, then again, that wasnt the purpose for building it.. I consider a step mash as having the temp. stable at the step temp in 5 minutes or less.

If it takes 25 minutes to go from protien to sacc. rest, you will probably have almost full converson before you ever reach your sacc. rest temp. Well modified malts, recirculating... yah, conversion will not take long. So the benefit of the step, is lost.

You are looking at a ramp mash, not a step, and the outcome will be different.

I am doing a three step mash Pils this coming week, I will be using boiling water additions to the mash to reach sacc. rest, then I will recirculate through the HERMS for the sacc. rest and the mash out.
 
Those saying protein rests are not needed because malt is highly modified, have not bought belguin or german bulk grain and read the analysis reports.

I suggest that you learn how to read and understand what highly modified malt really is, and get an analysis report on the malt you are using, before you just make stupid statements.


Yes, call or write to the maltster and request a malt analysis. I can already hear them laughing at you. Do you really think they have the time or desire to phuk with home brewers? I don't think so.
 
The Pol: I am curious as to how exactly you infuse the boiling water. Do you have a Y in your return, or do you slowly just add water to the top?

I don't expect to very often need to do a step mash with my HERMS, but after reading the posts hear, I seem to agree with the consensus that stepping with a HERMS is pretty hard and you may not be getting what you expect. I kind of like the idea of control myself, and would like to understand how I could do it if I wanted to.
 
Well, it is easy. I boil water on the stove and pour it in, then I mix it. There are some things that my HERMS is not good for, efficient step mashing is one.
 
Makes sense, how long to you believe that you need to recycle the wort to get back to having good clear wort?
 
Makes sense, how long to you believe that you need to recycle the wort to get back to having good clear wort?

In my case, 10 minutes. But on my Pils I am stirking at 131F, using boiling infusions to rest at 140F and 149F... when I reach 149F I start my recirc for the final 35 minutes of the mash (sacc. rest) and then also for the mashout, so I have PLENTY of time with the recirc to get it cleared up.

I will be doing this via brewcast, so it will be interesting to see how it goes.
 
Yes, call or write to the maltster and request a malt analysis. I can already hear them laughing at you. Do you really think they have the time or desire to phuk with home brewers? I don't think so.

The bulk grain buys we've done for our club has come with a full malt analysis for every grain we've purchased.

They're standard reports that go out with the malt and shouldn't be a problem to get. I wouldn't call the maltster though... the distributor or the LHBS that you buy the malt at should either already have the analysis reports or should be able to get them for you pretty easily.
 
The bulk grain buys we've done for our club has come with a full malt analysis for every grain we've purchased.

They're standard reports that go out with the malt and shouldn't be a problem to get. I wouldn't call the maltster though... the distributor or the LHBS that you buy the malt at should either already have the analysis reports or should be able to get them for you pretty easily.

I am off today so just for chitz and giggles I called Cargill since I have used their malts in the past through my club. I enquired about getting an analysis and I was told that an analysis was available only on bulk orders and it available only to licensed breweries and distributors. Once it gets to a LHBS or On-line shop you are pretty much out of luck. I wonder if the LHBS or On-Line shop retains that information. It would be a good question for Forrest at Austin Home Brew. I actually have access to that information because I get my malt from my club bulk purchases also. I thought I was the only one around who actually read the analysis and tried to understand what the values meant. I found this document to be very helpful in reading the malt analysis: http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/noonan.html
 
We do our bulk grain orders through North County Malt in NY and I'm pretty positive the grain analysis comes with every bag regardless of how much we bought... I don't even think we had to ask for it.

It's a bulk order but not a BULK order like a brewery would do. We're looking at 25-30 55 lb sacks but like I was saying, I'm pretty sure we get the analysis sheets for the single sacks within that order as well.
 
The bulk grain buys we've done for our club has come with a full malt analysis for every grain we've purchased.

They're standard reports that go out with the malt and shouldn't be a problem to get. I wouldn't call the maltster though... the distributor or the LHBS that you buy the malt at should either already have the analysis reports or should be able to get them for you pretty easily.

Yep, with every sack of grain, you can get the malt analysis sheet from the maltsters to the supplier. It has the container numbers or order numbers with dates malted and plant it was malted at. Has all the numbers you need to determine what you are working with. Numbers change from lot to lot. As crops change year to year.​

I remember when JJ Palmer was learning how to brew himself, and the knowledgable people who helped him along when writing his "how to brew" book. I also remember when Denny Conn first started brewing.

I remember when Greg Noonan first opened up his brewpub in Vermont, and us sitting having a few of his not so great brews that year on one of our ski trips. He did finally start producing some fine lagers after a while.

I simply said not to listen to people that tell you stupid information as in a protein rest is not needed and can actually hurt the finished product! What they should be saying is to get the analysis of the malt you are using from the supply shop to determine what is the best method of brewing with that malt.

As far as a herms system is concerned the whole concept of the design was to be able to step mash without supplyng direct heat to the mash liquor. That way there was no burning of the grainbed or scorcing/carmelizing the liquor, giving you off flavors, and unwanted color.

The herms coil goes into a bath then the liquor is circulated through the coil and back onto the mash bed. These setups were made long before more beer or sabco ever made their systems. In fact more beer wasn't even in existence, then they kind of stole the designs from homebrewers that developed their own breweries and showed them online.
 
Yep, with every sack of grain, you can get the malt analysis sheet from the maltsters to the supplier. It has the container numbers or order numbers with dates malted and plant it was malted at. Has all the numbers you need to determine what you are working with. Numbers change from lot to lot. As crops change year to year.​

I remember when JJ Palmer was learning how to brew himself, and the knowledgable people who helped him along when writing his "how to brew" book. I also remember when Denny Conn first started brewing.

I remember when Greg Noonan first opened up his brewpub in Vermont, and us sitting having a few of his not so great brews that year on one of our ski trips. He did finally start producing some fine lagers after a while.

I simply said not to listen to people that tell you stupid information as in a protein rest is not needed and can actually hurt the finished product! What they should be saying is to get the analysis of the malt you are using to from the supply shop to determine what is the best method of brewing with that malt.

As far as a herms system is concerned the whole concept of the design was to be able to step mash without supplyng directheat to the mash liquor.

The herms coil goe into a bath then the liquor is circulated through the coil and back onto the mash bed. These were made long before more beer or sabco ever made fact they kind of stole the designs from homebrewers that developed their own breweries/

You said:

Those saying protein rests are not needed because malt is highly modified, have not bought belguin or german bulk grain and read the analysis reports.

Well I have bought plenty of grain from Belgium and Germany and read the analysis*. The vast majority of it has a kolbach index above 40.

Now when I see a kolbach index in the low 40s, as I nearly always do with German and Belgian grain, I decide not to employ a protein rest.

You obviously think I am wrong. Let's hear why.

*Er, what I meant to say is that I remember with John Maier and George Fix were just starting to buy their malt from Germany and Belgium.
 
I just build a HERMS system, that is similiar to the Pols. Main difference being that I use a seperate 1.5 gallon heat exchanger instead of my HLT. While I don't plan on doing step mashes all that much, I would like to know if it is feasible.

It hear that with a 10 gallon batch and the time needed to recirculate the hot wort you get about 1 degree per minute in the MLT. So to go from a protein rest in the upper 120s to 150 would take about 25 minutes.

People talk about this as if it's a bad thing, but never real explain why? Is it simply the time required or does it have negative impacts on the beer? Or is it simply a control issue? Are you really converting some of the starches when going through the 40s and your target conversion temp was say 153?

Another question is, could I just dump boiling water on top of the mash tun to raise the temp in conjunction with the heat exchanger.

Thanks in Advance!!!

IMHO, since you are not using the HLT, you really have a RIMs. Years past, I have tried both systems and find that the time to increase mash tun temp has been detrimental to efficiency. Seems the exchanger becomes a death chamber to enzymes. I went to steam, but i'm not sure that is the answer either. The best efficiency i have ever achieved was with slow hot water infusions and lots of stirring.

A slow passage through the 40's will dry your beer out. But, wtf, maybe that's what you want......:)
 
I simply said not to listen to people that tell you stupid information as in a protein rest is not needed and can actually hurt the finished product! What they should be saying is to get the analysis of the malt you are using from the supply shop to determine what is the best method of brewing with that malt.

Don't give me that bullshirt! Your comment was directly at me.

I suggest that you learn how to read and understand what highly modified malt really is, and get an analysis report on the malt you are using, before you just make stupid statements.

Lieing will not get you credibility here lady! Have you read Palmers Book? Are you going to call him out too?
 
Gentlemen,

You all have my sincerest apologies for clouding up this thread by defending my position and opinion. I will post no longer in this thread as I do not want to detract from the discussion initiated by the original poster. It was wrong for me to go off topic. I should have stated my anger in a PM. I am truely sorry. This is very out of character for me. I had a temporary lapse of judgement.
 
I start at 125º. Then 15 minute rests at 135 and 145. I do a 60 minute rest at 154 and mash out. It just seems to ease through the protein stages and clear out more sugars. Boiling water? wee, thats not to very far off of decoction mashing. Start with like 130º mash. Draw off a gallon and boil it. Pour it back into you mash tun. Do this until your mash reaches your desired mash temp.
 
What is the expected temperature rise across the Herms coil in an average setup when stepping up from the 120's to the 150's

Depends on the length of the coil, diameter of the coil, flow rate... is the HLT already heated, or is it ramping up too? Electric or gas? How many watts? How many BTU?

I know with my system, it will take a solid 15-20 minutes to change over the temp of the entire mash from 120F to 150F. The problem is not heating the mash water, it is passively heating all of that grain with mash water.

Each time the mash water gets heated, it gets cooled in the mash and then returns to get heated. Also, as the mash heats and temp. differential lessens, the rate of heating of the mash stalls as the temp of the HLT and MLT near one another.

This then begins the conversation about overshooting the HLT temp. to keep the steady rise to rest temp in the MLT.

During this time, I have already boiled a couple quarts of water to step up and it took 2 minutes to infuse and mix.

I wish my HERMS would step mash, but it isnt fast enough and the HLT needs to overshoot, otherwise the MLT will hover below the HLT temp. for a long time.

This same thing happens in my closed cooling system. The HLT contains the cooling liquid and the hot wort passed through the HERMS coil and back to the kettle. When this happens, the cooling water begins at 33F, then ramps up tp 54F after about 5 minutes. As the wort cools (10 minutes) the water in the HLT begins to cool again to 48F as it contains more cooling power than the wort contains calories of heat.

BUT, after 25 minutes the HLT rests at 48F and the wort in the kettle rests at 57F... after 10 more minutes, the HLT is still at 48F and the kettle is still at 57F. The temp. differential is so small that there is very little thermal exchange taking place.
 
Gotta be someone out there who's done a combination of infusion and heat ex. heating in order to step quickly.

Just making up numbers....

You've got a 10 gallons in the mt (liquid, not total volume w/ grain)....

In order to step up 30 degrees, you have to add, say, 3 gallons of boiling water.

I'm curious (and obviously it would depend very much on the efficiency of the system and the factors you list above Pol) how hard it would be to figure out a simultanious jump through the heat ex and an infusion.

So... I want to jump 30 degrees...

I shut down circ'ing through the HLT and jack that up to my target temp. I then start circ'ing again... and once I start circing again, I'm curious how much boiling water I woudl have to add. Is it still the 3 gallons? Would it decrease down to 1.5 gallons??

..again... gonna range huge from rig to rig but I'm curious if you would get a material decrease in the amount of boiling water you would have to add.

... and then... what would an acceptable ramp up time be? five minutes?
 
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