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mutedog · 03-14-2011, 02:37 PM

Unless you're squeezing your own lemons the lemon juice you buy in the store contains sulfites or other preservatives that inhibit microbial activity. Whipping the must adds oxygen which helps neutralize these preservatives. The oxygen also is necessary for yeast reproduction so it's a double benefit.

**CidahMastah** · 03-14-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutedog

Unless you're squeezing your own lemons the lemon juice you buy in the store contains sulfites or other preservatives that inhibit microbial activity. Whipping the must adds oxygen which helps neutralize these preservatives. The oxygen also is necessary for yeast reproduction so it's a double benefit.

there are minimal sulfites in the real lemon, they are neutralized by their addition and the first aeration. Since you are adding tap water (aerated through an aerator on your tap) you don't even need to aerate this mix. i.e. all the free s02 dissipates without extra aeration. You are diluting from a couple quarts of real lemon with 4.5 gallons of aerated water.

As several batches has proven, excessive aerating isn't needed for success with this recipe. Once yeast reproduce, adding oxygen isn't beneficial since sugar to alcohol conversion by the yeast is an anaerobic process. So after say day 2, aeration isn't helping anything. A stir plate might help to keep yeast in suspension, but again, unnecessary.

mutedog · 03-14-2011, 03:16 PM

Yes, I believe Deb_rn was referring to the whipping/stirring part of the instructions that is done prior to pitching. Obviously you don't want to aerate once fermentation has taken hold (unless perhaps you have a stuck ferment). Excessive aerating might not be necessary but it also won't hurt.

Not all taps have aerators, I'd guess that most utility sinks do not have them.

**CidahMastah** · 03-14-2011, 03:33 PM

I still think you water coming out of a utility sink would have plenty of air in it - but even so

, additional aerating in the beginning wouldn't hurt. All regular kitchen taps should have an aerator in them.

But my real contention is that people have been stating twice daily aeration is necessary (or even just preferred) during the ferment. I disagree with this statement.

In my mind, this does introduce risk for contamination of bacteria/infection. And again, it isn't necessary once ferment starts. There are a lot of unnecessary steps in the original recipe. The originator isn't bad for adding the steps, just sayin' - the steps can bee improved by less interruption IMHO.

However I will concede that in reality the substance is so acidic, it isn't a good growing ground for most readily available bacterias. Which is probably why so few people have had infections from their very "hands on" approach to this fermentation. Think about any other wine/beer/cider you have made that calls on you to touch it so many times in the midst of fermentation.

Captive · 03-15-2011, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CidahMastah

I still think you water coming out of a utility sink would have plenty of air in it - but even so

, additional aerating in the beginning wouldn't hurt. All regular kitchen taps should have an aerator in them.

But my real contention is that people have been stating twice daily aeration is necessary (or even just preferred) during the ferment. I disagree with this statement.

In my mind, this does introduce risk for contamination of bacteria/infection. And again, it isn't necessary once ferment starts. There are a lot of unnecessary steps in the original recipe. The originator isn't bad for adding the steps, just sayin' - the steps can bee improved by less interruption IMHO.

However I will concede that in reality the substance is so acidic, it isn't a good growing ground for most readily available bacterias. Which is probably why so few people have had infections from their very "hands on" approach to this fermentation. Think about any other wine/beer/cider you have made that calls on you to touch it so many times in the midst of fermentation.

As with any recipe, there is room for alteration. If other ways work for you..... knock yourself out.

I published the recipe the way it is because it was the method that produced the most consistently successful results. Some alterations you can make won't kill it, but may alter the time of ferment or flavor somewhat. I've gotten e-mails from people having problems and I come to find that the issue rests with changes or substitutions they've made.

Let's just say that the recipe takes you down the middle of the road where there are less obstacles to encounter. If you'd rather take a short cut or more adventurous route, ...cool.... It can be fun to drive through the ditches once in a while, but watch out for the rocks, holes, and stumps hidden in the grass.

The originator

**CidahMastah** · 03-15-2011, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captive

As with any recipe, there is room for alteration. If other ways work for you..... knock yourself out.

I published the recipe the way it is because it was the method that produced the most consistently successful results. Some alterations you can make won't kill it, but may alter the time of ferment or flavor somewhat. I've gotten e-mails from people having problems and I come to find that the issue rests with changes or substitutions they've made.

Let's just say that the recipe takes you down the middle of the road where there are less obstacles to encounter. If you'd rather take a short cut or more adventurous route, ...cool.... It can be fun to drive through the ditches once in a while, but watch out for the rocks, holes, and stumps hidden in the grass.

The originator

Fair enough, you use what has worked for you and recommend that. Though I certainly wouldn't say that the suggestions I have made are short cuts or more adventurous (they leave less chance for contamination).

What I did find interesting, and likely helpful about your recipe was the two step addition of the energizer/yeast and lemon juice. Very smart way to approach the ferment.

Please understand, I am not trying to upset you or anyone else- rather improve the process.

If you were to follow the aeration steps alone with say a cider, it would likely ruin it due to all the oxidation. Since those aeration steps are counter to my cider experience it made me wonder if you lose something flavor wise by the continual aeration. I think that using a stir plate would certainly help keep the yeast up and active though. However, don't think it is necessary.

Above all, from my experience I enjoyed your recipe. Did a 13 gallon batch from L1118 yeast (5packs). I added the second installment of energizer and yeast at about 24 hours from initial pitch and let it roll. Turned out great.

Best

geniz · 03-15-2011, 01:02 PM

Lon,

I started this thread to explore how Skeeter Pee could be made without a prior slurry. I wanted to do this because I don't make much wine. Other than the way I started the yeast, I followed your recipe exactly. I did this to have the best chance of success.

Maybe some of the steps in the original recipe can be altered or left out completely, but I agree with you that if all steps are followed, you have the best chance of success. I've made several batches and all have turned out excellent.

However it is interesting to see how others are tweaking and experimenting with the method, deconstructing it to see how various changes in method affects the final outcome.

**MeatyPortion** · 03-15-2011, 01:19 PM

This is a great thread. I've been thinking about trying to make a wine and this one seems to be very good and won't break the bank. For a beginning foray into wine-making, would this be a bad idea to try this recipe? I feel pretty comfortable with beer brewing so far and I'd like to branch out but I'd like to hear some opinions on a newbie getting into wine-making.

**CidahMastah** · 03-15-2011, 01:46 PM

Wine is actually easier than beer in my opinion (no brewing!) - you will be just fine!

You can't go wrong either, recipe is dirt cheap to attempt. Even if you hate the results you are out less than your cost of hops on typical brew.

**MeatyPortion** · 03-15-2011, 01:48 PM

Cool, thanks. I'd like to make this for my wife and eventually make some reds like cabernet sauvignon, merlot, etc for her but I need a jumping off (or in) point. This sounds like it would be perfect.