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Old 09-20-2006, 10:02 AM   #1
nissed as a pewt
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Default Is pulping or juicing better?

Hi all, newbie here!

After several weekend walks past blackberry bushes and elderberry trees a spark was lit that I would have a go at making wine.

Having read various websites etc. the general rule with elderberry (and other fruits) is to pur boiling water on them then mash them and that they have very high tannin levels?

I was wondering what would happen if i extracted the juice from them in my juicer rather than mashing in hot water? There would be more liquid/juice and less must to syphen off the top of. Would this be like an unconcentrated kit so does the skin, seeds and fibre add to the wine?

Things like apples must juice far better than mashing?

I have a freezer full of blackberrys and elder's waiting be transformed

Thanx in advance
Rob

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Old 09-20-2006, 02:29 PM   #2
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I'm not sure of the "correct" answer, but I know that for blackberries freezing them is best because it breaks it down to get more juice. Then I put them in a straining bag and throw them in my primary. I pour the hot water over it, and make sure I add pectic enzyme. (By the time this sits in your primary for 5 days, there is nothing left of the fruit except the gunk in the bag). You will get a pectin haze from fruits that are pulpy, and pectic enzyme helps to break it down. I would NEVER put blackberries in a juicer for wine because of the pectin (and seeds).

For apples, use just the juice because the wine will never clear because of the pectin. That's why a juicer or press is ok for wine making, but not a blender. Also, for all fruit wines, the fruit is removed after about 5 days in the primary, and the juice goes into secondary. When I removed my rhubarb pulp, the instructions specifically said not to squeeze, just to drain the fruit over the primary. I did the same for my blackberry wines.

I add tannin to most of my fruit wines, as most fruits have less tannin than grapes. I did NOT add tannin to my blackberry wines, but I wouldn't say they have lots of tannin. Certainly less than grape skins.

I'm off to work- but I'll be glad to answer any other questions that you have later.

Lorena

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Old 09-20-2006, 10:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissed as a pewt
After several weekend walks past blackberry bushes and elderberry trees a spark was lit that I would have a go at making wine.
Having read various websites etc. the general rule with elderberry (and other fruits) is to pur boiling water on them then mash them and that they have very high tannin levels?
I was wondering what would happen if i extracted the juice from them in my juicer rather than mashing in hot water? There would be more liquid/juice and less must to syphen off the top of. Would this be like an unconcentrated kit so does the skin, seeds and fibre add to the wine?
Welcome to the site!
Elderberries do have a high tannin level, they don't have much juice and to put them through a juicer will be even more time consuming after you've picked them from the stalks and won't reduce the tannin. There's also the point that raw elderberries contain hydrocyanic acid which is why most people heat them first to break it down. A purely Elderberry Wine will take YEARS to mature because of the tannin, most people don't bother with that and do a combo of maybe 1 elderberry to 3 or 4 parts blackberry.
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:16 PM   #4
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Thanks for the welcomes and advice.

Bummer on the mixing quantities as elderberrys are more abundant than blackberrys I collected 1.16 kilos (2.lbs 9oz approx) of blackberrys and 1.8 (4 lbs approx) of elders. I have 2x 1 gallon demijons sounds like I only enough ingredients for 1 gallon of mixed fruit wine or will they stretch to the 2?

All in my freezer, the elderberrys are off the stalks so might keep what I dont use for other recepies in the freezer?

Should I keep the berries in the freezer and practice on a kit from concentrate or go for it with my pickings?

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Old 09-20-2006, 11:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenae
You will get a pectin haze from fruits that are pulpy, and pectic enzyme helps to break it down. I would NEVER put blackberries in a juicer for wine because of the pectin (and seeds).
For apples, use just the juice because the wine will never clear because of the pectin. That's why a juicer or press is ok for wine making, but not a blender. Also, for all fruit wines, the fruit is removed after about 5 days in the primary, and the juice goes into secondary. When I removed my rhubarb pulp, the instructions specifically said not to squeeze, just to drain the fruit over the primary.
I'd just say that adding pectinase works for the right fruits. Add it in a decent amount (1 tsp per gallon) to the fruit after the hot water is topped up with cold to the full level of your brew. Stir well. I ALWAYS make apple wine with the skins/cores/seeds in the primary this way and haven't had a pectin haze problem (unlike cider where I rarely bother adding it - cloudy is ok sometimes! ).
Rhubarb doesn't have pectin in it so no need to worry about it - it's more the acidity of it that can cause problems!
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissed as a pewt
Bummer on the mixing quantities as elderberrys are more abundant than blackberrys I collected 1.16 kilos (2.lbs 9oz approx) of blackberrys and 1.8 (4 lbs approx) of elders. I have 2x 1 gallon demijons sounds like I only enough ingredients for 1 gallon of mixed fruit wine or will they stretch to the 2?
All in my freezer, the elderberrys are off the stalks so might keep what I dont use for other recepies in the freezer?
Should I keep the berries in the freezer and practice on a kit from concentrate or go for it with my pickings?
I doubt you'll pick more decent blackberries at this time of year. Cut your losses and use all you've picked with a topping of elderberries. You could experiment with kits and elderberries but i'd save the extra demijohn for racking unless you plan to buy more. Next year consider elderflower wine and bugger the berries. (but not on my patch)......
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Old 09-20-2006, 11:33 PM   #7
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This is my blackberry wine recipe:

[SIZE="2"]BLACKBERRY WINE (2) [Medium Bodied Dry]
4 lb blackberries
2-1/4 lb granulated sugar
1/2 tsp pectic enzyme
1/2 tsp acid blend
crushed Campden tablet
7 pts water
wine yeast and nutrient
Pick fully ripe, best quality berries. Wash thoroughly and place in nylon jelly-bag. Mash and squeeze out all juice into primary fermentation vessel. Tie jelly-bag and place in primary fermentation vessel with all ingredients except yeast. Stir well to dissolve sugar, cover well, and set aside for 24 hours. Add yeast, cover, and set aside 5 days, stirring daily. Strain juice from jelly-bag and siphon off sediments into secondary fermentation vessel of dark glass (or wrap clear glass with brown paper), filling only to the upper shoulder of the secodary, and fit airlock. Leftover must should be placed in a 750-ml wine bottle with airlock (a #2 bung fits most wine bottles) and used for topping up. Top up when all danger of foaming over is past. Place in cool (60-65 degrees F.) dark place for three weeks. Rack, allow another two months to finish, then rack again and bottle in dark glass. Allow a year to mature to a nice semi-sec. [Adapted from Raymond Massaccesi's Winemaker's Recipe Handbook]

My notes:
8/15/06- made this recipe, doubling for 2 gallons. S.g. is 1.084 before yeast addition. Using premier cuvee yeast. [/SIZE]

So, yes, I'd say you were a little light on blackberries for this medium bodied wine. I got my recipe from Jack Keller's website: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/blackbry.asp
It has everything you need to know and more about wines. Jack's elderberry wines are listed here: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques30.asp. I don't know anything about elderberries, so I'm not help at all there. He does have some other recipes for lighter bodied blackberry wines, so that might work for you. Or, you can buy a pound of frozen blackberries from the store, and that would get you pretty close.

Good luck with the wine,
Lorena

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Old 09-21-2006, 12:08 AM   #8
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Thanks for the recepi and tips.

Think I'll try the blackberry recipe picking some more up from the supermarket or market, failing that I'll top up the blackberrys with elderberrys and see what happens?

Sounds like i need to get a fermentation bucket for fermenting before the mix goes into a demijon? What size should i be looking for?

Caplan, think your Lincolnshire elderflowers are safe from my Yorkshire hands - especially as I live within 5 min walk from feilds full of both elder and brambles.

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Old 09-24-2006, 05:55 PM   #9
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Decided to try a kit wine first to get the basic idea and something will be drinkable for Christmas so bought a Beaverdale chablis for the girlfriend and a youngs blackcherry for me.

My girlfriend has decided to have a go at her place too as a bit of joint hobby and bought herself a full kit yesterday.

These kits were pretty easy to do and have given me a good idea for when we start on my fruit which we plan to do together next week. My two were both bubbling within 10 minutes although hers took several hours.

Hers has fizzed through the airlocks though is this a problem? She has emptied it and refilled it with clean water.

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Old 09-24-2006, 10:15 PM   #10
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no problem with it coming through the airlocks. Just resanitize and refill. It happens all the time, and there is enough co2 coming out to keep the nasties away.

Lorena

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