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Home Brew Forums > Wine, Mead, Cider, Sake & Soda > Wine Making Forum > Man, I love Apfelwein
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Old 01-13-2007, 12:05 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Kadmium
made the whole 5 gallons lol.... soooo yeah. It does say however it deactivates within hours of bottling the juice to leave it preservative free (big preservative free sign on the front) which is why I bought it, but when I inspected closer to see what types of ingredients it used, I noticed it... really pissed me off!
If it didn't say 100% Apple Juice, then you may have problems. That's the key along with no additives or preservatives.
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:18 AM   #572
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Default Carbonation & Yeast Nutrient

I sent this email to Lesafrey Yeast (maker of Red Star Montrachet)

Gunnard,

Thanks for the very quick reply! I have a couple other questions but
forgot to ask in my initial contact.

1.) Does this yeast benefit from the use of a nutrient?

I copied a popular recipe off of www.Homebrewtalk.com. - The recipe has 2
lbs of corn sugar and 5 gallons of preservative (free) cider and one pack of
Montrachet. There has been a lot of talk of whether it was needed. Many
people have complained about the sulfur generation. I added 2 oz. of
nutrient to the must because of what I read about cider making. Just
curious on your opinion.

2.) I would like to naturally carbonate this when I bottle. How much corn
sugar will I need to add?

My batch will be very close to 5 gallons. I would prefer it to be
effervescent. Most of the people who are making this are kegging it then
add 10-14 PSI of CO2. There hasn't been much discussion on how to
naturally carbonate this. Please make a recommendation.


Their reply:

In answer to your questions:

1. Yeast nutrients never hurt, and in some situations, they are highly
recommended. Many fermentation substrates can be deficient, not only in
nitrogen, but in vitamins and trace minerals. Examples include honey based
fermentations and fermentations involving highly clarified juices as in
some Chardonnay musts. Nutritional supplementation can be especially
important where high final alcohols are involved. For lower alcohol (4-12
% v/v) beverages, derived from rich substrates such as malt and
non-clarified musts from well ripened grapes, added nutrition is less of an
issue for commercially produced yeast starters. The yeast production
process provides the yeast ample nutrients to sustain and complete such
fermentations.

2. As for your use of Montrachet in cider production: this strain does have
the reputation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) production. This strain is
recommended for robust red and white wines; and, has been reported to
produce good non-grape fruit wine, such a plum. The cause of H2S
production in wine fermentations is still under active investigation. It
is known that it can be associated with nitrogen deficiency in some cases,
but not always. The addition of yeast nutrients such as diammonium
phosphate (a nitrogen source) have routinely been added during the first
quarter of the fermentation to help alleviate H2S production. Researchers
have been investigating parameters such as juice amino acid profiles, use
of sulphur powder as a pre-harvest mold inhibitor, juice sulphate and
sulphite levels, juice mineral content, etc. It is also well known that
there are yeast strain dependent differences in H2S production.

I am not familiar with the term "preservative (free) cider". (my typo) Hopefully, it does
not contain sorbates or benzoates that would inhibit your fermentation. In
America, cider is usually made from table apples. Sugar content should be
in the 10-12% range. Your 2 lbs/5 gal corn sugar is roughly another 5%. I
predict your final alcohol will be in the 7.5-8.5% range. Montrachet will
have no trouble with this.

To bottle condition (carbonate) this cider, add 3/4 cup of corn sugar/5
gal. Make sure the fermentation is over prior to adding priming sugar.
Most people would rely on the residual yeast in the juice to carbonate the
cider in the bottle after capping. Others will inoculate with a fresh
packet of yeast just to make sure. It will take 1-2 weeks (depending on
cellar temperature) to carbonate the cider.



So it looks like 3/4" Cup for carbonating....

He guessed well on the ABV.

You can take it or leave it on the nutrients, might keep the rhino farts at a minimum.

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Old 01-13-2007, 01:23 AM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdWort
If it didn't say 100% Apple Juice, then you may have problems. That's the key along with no additives or preservatives.

Did not specifically say 100% apple juice, just had under ingredients

Reconstituted apple juice, Food acid, Vitamin C, Dimethyl Dicarbonate

and then had

No colours
No preservatives
No added sugar

PS: Awesome post on the montrachet yeast mate! loving it! VERY well done!
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:39 AM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadmium
Did not specifically say 100% apple juice, just had under ingredients

Reconstituted apple juice, Food acid, Vitamin C, Dimethyl Dicarbonate

and then had

No colours
No preservatives
No added sugar

PS: Awesome post on the montrachet yeast mate! loving it! VERY well done!
I would not use that juice again. I use Tree Top Apple Juice from Costco. They sell it for $5.99 for 2 gallons.

The label says 100% Apple Juice from Concentrate.

Here's the Ingredients verbatim: Apple Juice from concentrate (water, concentrated apple juice).

That's it. No funky chemical names.

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Old 01-13-2007, 01:54 AM   #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadmium
Did not specifically say 100% apple juice, just had under ingredients

Reconstituted apple juice, Food acid, Vitamin C, Dimethyl Dicarbonate

and then had

No colours
No preservatives
No added sugar

PS: Awesome post on the montrachet yeast mate! loving it! VERY well done!
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but even though the apple juice that you got said that it does not contain any preservatives, that is not entirely accurate.

Dimethyl Dicarbonate, while not considered a preservative by the FDA in the amounts that they have aloud to be used, is in fact a yeast sterilizer! You may be out of luck on this one.

John
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:06 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by johnsma22
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but even though the apple juice that you got said that it does not contain any preservatives, that is not entirely accurate.

Dimethyl Dicarbonate, while not considered a preservative by the FDA in the amounts that they have aloud to be used, is in fact a yeast sterilizer! You may be out of luck on this one.

John
Yeah, I know, however I have AIRLOCK ACTIVITY!!! WOOOO... yeah, its bubbling about once every 25 seconds, and its at the 19hour mark... so yeah, I think we are going to be O.K.!

The reason I didnt buy treetop from costco is... im Australian! but yeha, when I saw the juice in nice big 4litre bottles, with big ticks on it saying "No preservative, No added sugar, no colours" I was like "SHIMMY!!!!" (aussie for f***kin awesome)

but then once I poured it all in and everything decided to read the back lable (an OCD about knowing where it comes from etc) and yeah, got real angry! but like I said, I got bubbling, a nice ring of yeast and the "brew" is a lil cloudy (cant see the otherside of the carboy) so yeah, we should be OK gents! will give you an update report in about 24 hours on how its going and will definatley let you know how it tastes hehe...
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:25 AM   #577
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SHIMMY! Mate!

Whoo hoo. New word for the day!

Thanks!
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Old 01-13-2007, 10:08 PM   #578
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SHIMMY! Mate!

Whoo hoo. New word for the day!

Thanks!

hahahah thanks!! and yeah, got a nice fat layer of bubbles on the top of the carboy and steady bubbles at around 1 every 10 seconds, so they are ALIVE!!!! heehhehe. will let you know how it turns out in a day or two
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Old 01-13-2007, 10:58 PM   #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdWort
I would not use that juice again. I use Tree Top Apple Juice from Costco. They sell it for $5.99 for 2 gallons.

The label says 100% Apple Juice from Concentrate.

Here's the Ingredients verbatim: Apple Juice from concentrate (water, concentrated apple juice).

That's it. No funky chemical names.
Gotta love the search feature. I was just about to say, I can't find Tree Top anywhere. I looked at my local Sam's and they don't have it. I searched on the internet and all the local Sam's have no availability on the product. They did have other brands that were 100% juice (just water and concentrated apple juice) but I was afraid to get it for fear it was not the right stuff. I'll be sure to pick it up next time I'm there. It was even cheaper, like $5.88 for 2 gallons.

A quick question. One of the brands had added ascorbic acid. I won't get this one, but is ascorbic acid a problem?
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:47 PM   #580
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A quick question. One of the brands had added ascorbic acid. I won't get this one, but is ascorbic acid a problem?
No, shouldn't be a problem. Ascorbic acid is just the chemical name for vitamin C in its principal form.

John
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