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Old 10-08-2012, 11:56 AM   #961
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Originally Posted by SiriusStarr View Post
I'll ask this here, since it seems to be the local repository of BIAB knowledge, and I haven't been able to find anything. I'm getting ready to do my first BIAB batch soon and was wondering, what ratio of water to grain do most people use for BIAB? 1.0-2.0 qt / lb is of course the recommended range for AG brewing, but it sounds like most people who aren't sparging are using a much thinner mash than this?

I ask because I would think (just from Michaelis–Menten kinetics) that efficiency would be reduced at extreme thinness (unless mashing for much longer), since the substrate concentration is reduced (and so the rate of conversion is reduced).
Use as much water as you can so that you end up with about 5.5 gallon when you're finished boiling. I use about 2.6 quarts/pound of grain. But every system is different. I crush my grains twice, mash for 90 minutes, stir and reheat half way through, mash out at 170 deg, and drain for about a half hour and consistently get 72% efficiency.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:15 PM   #962
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SiriusStarr gets an award for coolness - Michaelis-Menten Kinetics and beer...love it.

BUT - as someone who may know about biological reactions, you probably know that a 2 fold reduction in substrate concentration (the relative thinness compared with standard) is really nothing in biological terms - especially when one considers that amazing speed most enzymatic reactions run at. I would bet you would start to make a difference with a 10-fold reduction in substrates, but would be surprised if 2-3 fold would make much of a difference.

My data-free ideas...

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Old 10-08-2012, 04:36 PM   #963
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Default No sparge, no squeeze BIAB.

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So, it's only one set of data but it looks like the squeeze is a total waste of time other than getting my pre-boil volume where it needs to be (I only picked up .0004 gravity points). I think I'll just add a tiny bit more starting water and stop wasting my time squeezing!
This very closely mirrors the results my friend and I have been seeing since we moved to a full volume BIAB process. We have found that the mashout has a positive effect of adding on average 4 gravity points but that squeezing was a waste of time. So we've stopped squeezing the bag at all.

We simply pull the bag, let it hang over the beam in the garage and drip down into the kettle as we bring it up to a boil. We're consistently achieving efficiencies of 80% and higher.

Squeezing the bag seems to be a given in most of the BIAB processes written up online so I'd be interested in hearing from other people who don't do it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:10 PM   #964
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squeezing works for some.. others get the same efficiency without squeezing. it all works and the best thing about brewing is you can find what works best for you.

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Old 10-08-2012, 07:34 PM   #965
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Originally Posted by FlyDoctor View Post
SiriusStarr gets an award for coolness - Michaelis-Menten Kinetics and beer...love it.

BUT - as someone who may know about biological reactions, you probably know that a 2 fold reduction in substrate concentration (the relative thinness compared with standard) is really nothing in biological terms - especially when one considers that amazing speed most enzymatic reactions run at. I would bet you would start to make a difference with a 10-fold reduction in substrates, but would be surprised if 2-3 fold would make much of a difference.

My data-free ideas...
Haha, sorry, I'm a biologist, so this is how I perceive the world. XD

Well, it's all a matter of what the substrate concentration is. If the active sites are essentially saturated, then of course the process is rate-limited by the kcat of the enzyme and the enzyme concentration, and a two-fold reduction in substrate isn't going to appreciably change the rate. If the rate-limiting step is formation of the enzyme-substrate complex, then a two-fold reduction is substrate can result in a significant reduction in rate.

That being said, my guess is that alpha-/beta-amylase have pretty small Km's and we have a ridiculously high starch concentration while mashing, so it shouldn't (and it apparently doesn't, since BIAB wokrs) matter.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:01 PM   #966
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Originally Posted by robcj View Post
This very closely mirrors the results my friend and I have been seeing since we moved to a full volume BIAB process. We have found that the mashout has a positive effect of adding on average 4 gravity points but that squeezing was a waste of time. So we've stopped squeezing the bag at all.

We simply pull the bag, let it hang over the beam in the garage and drip down into the kettle as we bring it up to a boil. We're consistently achieving efficiencies of 80% and higher.

Squeezing the bag seems to be a given in most of the BIAB processes written up online so I'd be interested in hearing from other people who don't do it.
Hello, (Me Not knowing any better) I wonder if squeezing the bag makes any difference if you only did a 60 min mash instead of 90?, and or doing a partial boil? as I can only pull off a 4 gal boil at the moment.
(I need a bigger pot lol)

Thanks and Cheers
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:04 PM   #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyDoctor View Post
SiriusStarr gets an award for coolness - Michaelis-Menten Kinetics and beer...love it.

BUT - as someone who may know about biological reactions, you probably know that a 2 fold reduction in substrate concentration (the relative thinness compared with standard) is really nothing in biological terms - especially when one considers that amazing speed most enzymatic reactions run at. I would bet you would start to make a difference with a 10-fold reduction in substrates, but would be surprised if 2-3 fold would make much of a difference.

My data-free ideas...
Was that in english ?, LOL just kidding.

Cheers
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:41 PM   #968
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Originally Posted by WileECoyote View Post
Hello, (Me Not knowing any better) I wonder if squeezing the bag makes any difference if you only did a 60 min mash instead of 90?, and or doing a partial boil? as I can only pull off a 4 gal boil at the moment.
(I need a bigger pot lol)

Thanks and Cheers
yes a partial boil makes a difference. if you can only do a 4 gal boil, make a smaller batch
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:13 PM   #969
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Sorry if this was already discussed. Whats the advantage of a 90 minute mash? I'm still new to BIAab but I seem to do OK with 60 minutes. Has anyone done any experiments with 60 vs 90 and compared efficiency?

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Old 10-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #970
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Sorry if this was already discussed. Whats the advantage of a 90 minute mash? I'm still new to BIAab but I seem to do OK with 60 minutes. Has anyone done any experiments with 60 vs 90 and compared efficiency?
We are experimenting with this at another BIAB website.

Here are results of my last two brews:

brew#1
15 minutes: 7.4 brix/1.0282 (mash temp 154F)
30 minutes: 7.8 brix/1.0298 (mash temp 154F)
45 minutes: 8.6 brix/1.0329 (mash temp 154F)
60 minutes: 10.0 brix/1.0384 (mash temp 152F)
75 minutes: 10.5 brix/1.0404 (mash temp 150F)
I then ramped temp up to mashout (168F) over 15 minutes:
90 minutes: 11.2 brix/1.0432 (mash temp 168F)
I let it sit at mashout temp for 15 minutes:
105 minutes: 11.4 brix/1.0440 (mash temp 167F)
Pull bag and squeeze:
pre-boil: 11.5 brix/1.0444 (mash temp N/A)

brew#2
60 minutes: 7.4 brix/1.0282 (mash temp 154F)
end of 90 minute mash: 7.8 brix/1.0298 (mash temp 154F)
end of 10 minute mashout (168F): 9.0 brix/1.0345
pre-boil (after pulling and squeezing bag): 9.2 brix/1.0353

*(brix converted to sg using Sean Terrill's calculator)


Granted this is a very limited data set but it appears that:

A) the extra 30 minutes in the mash does indeed result in more extraction/higher gravity

B) squeezing the crap out of the bag may not be worth the extra .0005 gravity point!
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