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Old 01-22-2014, 06:57 PM   #1
terrazza
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Default Click PLC smart enough to control all of this?

I'm looking for some perspective on this project of mine... I want to rebuild/redesign a control panel that will control every single aspect of my entire brewery. The kicker is that I want to use a PLC to replace the 48 relays I have already in place in the existing control panel. The current control panel has only limited control of certain processes – heats HLT, Mash tun, cools glycol, runs all pumps, can be set to initiate at a particular time. I want to integrate a PLC to expand the brewery's function from these above processes, to include a few more processes that will be oulined below. I have my sight set on a Click PLC from automation direct. But have ZERO experience with a plc period and would like to know if this PLC will be able to handle all the steps layed out in the below outline.

First though, a background on the equipment:

1. Three-tank-combi-tank. MT on top, HLT in middle, glycol tank on bottom.





Looking down into the Mash tun from the top through a cutaway into the HLT...



Looking further down into the HLT at the HLT float switch, electric heater element, and temp probe...



Looking into the HLT from the front...




2. Separate gas boil kettle, whirlpool/hopback, fermenter.


3. Wort/Hot water Flow Control Panel...





4. Electric control panel...



The control Panel.
Auberins 2342 PIDs,
Auberins ASL-51 timer
50 amp SSR for HLT
Switches, indicator lights, indicator buzzer, and various necessary control panel internals.
The control panel will control:
*** two Little Giant 3-md-hc pumps (on the back of the liquid flow panel) that can shuttle wort, hot water, hot wort, CIP cleaner in and out of any piece of equipment.
*** one 5500 watt heating element in HLT
*** one centrifugal pump for circulating glycol in a cooling tank
*** three solenoid valves for directing glycol either to fermenter or to circulate in cooling tank.
*** one 10,000 BTU compressing unit for chilling glycol.

What I'd like for my control panel is seen below, with all the LOGIC steps below that.



Looking at the above picture, to begin the brew day, I'd start off pressing Main Power on. Then press button A (Operate Water tank). The HLT Pid would turn on allowing me to set i to a strike in temperature. An indicator light next to the automatic start vs manual start button would light up suggesting a response. If automatic start is selected, then the timer would allow a countdown to when the entire process starts heating water. Indicator lights next to the HLT out pump will light up suggesting a response. It must be depressed before pump would turn on at the countdown time. The HLT float would prohibit pumps and element to be on if there is no water in the HLT. Pause/Resume indicator light suggesting the pause/resume button can be used to pause pumps and element is enabled... ALL OTHER INDICATOR LIGHTS WILL BE OFF AND THEIR ADJACENT BUTTONS WOULD BE DISABLED. All of this is seen in the outline below... I hope it makes sense... Just want to know if a Click PLC can do all of this for my system...


[ ] = Latching Button
( ) = Momentary Button
{ } = Device

I. [Main Power]
A) (OPERATE WATER TANK)
***arrange piping for***
MT → HLT → HLT out Pump → MT (uni-tank circulation)
i. {HLT PID} turns on
(a) Set HLT strike-in temp to 163 F
ii. {Timer/stopwatch} turns on
(a) Set timer to countdown to begin heating water process at 5:00 AM
iii. {Indicator light} next to [automatic/manual start switch] lights up
(a) Set for automatic or manual start to heat water.
iv. {Indicator light} next to [HLT Out Pump switch] lights up
(a) Set pump ON to begin circulating when process begins.
v. {HLT float} activates & senses if water is or is not present
(a) Water sensed in HLT.
vi. {Indicator light} for “Water Present in HLT” lights up when water
vii. {Indicator light} next to [Pause/Resume switch] lights up
(a) Allows pause/resume during heating of water tank.

LOGIC for OPERATE WATER TANK:
IF A True, THEN latch A & unlatch B, C, D, G, H
IF i-v True, THEN heating element fires on & off.
IF ii-v True, THEN HLT pump always on for recirculation.
IF vii True, THEN heating element & pump off.






B) (OPERATE MASH & HEAT SPARGE WATER)
***arrange piping for***
MT → MT out pump → MT circulation
HLT → HLT out pump → HLT circulation
i. {HLT PID} & {MT PID} turn on
(a) Set HLT to 168 to prep sparge water temperature.
(b) {MT PID} is just to observe MT temp, will not influence process.
ii. {Timer/Stopwatch} turns on
(a) Works only as a stopwatch to monitor length of mash process.
(b) Set to 60 minute (or length of mash process)
iii. {Indicator light} next to [MT OUT Pump switch] lights up
(a) Set MT OUT Pump switch to ON
(b) Arrange tubing for MT recirculation
iv. {Indicator light} next to [HLT OUT Pump switch] lights up
(a) Set HLT OUT Pump switch to ON
v. {HLT float} activates & senses if water is or is not present
(a) Water sensed in HLT.
vi. {Indicator light} for “Water Present in HLT” lights up when water
vii. {Indicator light} next to [Heating Element switch] lights up
(a) Set Heating Element Switch to ON
viii. {Indicator light} next to [Pause/Resume switch] lights up

LOGIC FOR OPERATE MASH & HEAT SPARGE WATER
IF B True, THEN Latch B & Unlatch A, C, D, G, H
IF iii True, THEN MT Pump ON
IF iv True, THEN HLT Pump ON
IF i, iv, v, & vii, True THEN Heating Element fires On/Off
If viii True THEN All pumps & heating element OFF.


C) (OPERATE SPARGE AND DRAIN WORT)
***arrange piping for***
MT → MT out pump → Boil Kettle
HLT → HLT out pump → MT
i. {HLT PID} & {MT PID} turn on.
1. {MT PID} controls {heating element}
2. {MT PID} monitors sparge water temperature at the point in the piping just before sparge water enters MT.
3. {HLT PID} just to observe the temperature in the HLT.
ii. {Timer/Stopwatch} turns on.
1. Works only as stopwatch to monitor 60 minute fly-sparge
iii. {Indicator light} next to [MT OUT Pump switch] lights up
1. turn ON to power pump
iv. {Indicator light} next to [HLT OUT Pump switch] lights up
1. Turn ON to power pump to begin sparge process.
2. Throttle back valve on pump to a manageable sparge rate.
v. {Indicator light} next to [MT float control system switch] lights up
1. Turn ON [MT float control system]
(a) IF MT float is in “low position”, then it temporarily stops {MT OUT pump} to allow constant flow rate of hot water from HLT to fill MT.
(b) IF MT float is in “high position”, then it starts {MT OUT pump} to drain wort into Boil Kettle.
vi. {Indicator light} for “Water Present in HLT” lights up when water
vii. {Indicator light} next to [heating element switch] lights up
1. Turn ON
viii. Pause/Stop

1. Turn ON


LOGIC FOR OPERATE SPARGE AND DRAIN WORT
IF C True, THEN Latch C & Unlatch A, B, D, G, H
IF iv True, THEN HLT Sparge Pump ON
IF iii, v(1), v(1)(b) True THEN MT Drain Pump ON
IF i, iv, vi, vii True THEN Heating element fires ON/OFF
If viii, THEN All pumps and heating element OFF





D) Chill Wort /begin heating HLT water for cleanup– observe chiller-out temps, hop back temps, bk temps, cooling water temp through manual temperature guages, not PIDs.
***Orient pipes BK → whirlpool → Chiller → whirlpool
i. MT out pump & HLT out pump connected to chiller and whirlpool at flow control panel
ii. {Indicator light} next to [MT OUT Pump switch] lights up
1. turn ON to power pump to pump hot wort out of whirlpool through chiller #1 back into whirlpool.
iii. {Indicator light} next to [HLT OUT Pump switch] lights up
1. Turn ON to power pump to pump hot wort out of whirlpool through chiller #2 back into whirlpool.
iv. {HLT PID} turn on.
1. {HLT PID} controls {heating element}
v. {Indicator light} for “Water Present in HLT” lights up when water
vi. {Indicator light} next to [heating element switch] lights up
1. Turn ON
vii. Pause/Stop
LOGIC FOR CHILL WORT/begin heating CIP water
IF D True, THEN Latch D & Unlatch A, B, C, G, H
IF ii True, THEN MT Out pump turns ON
IF iii True, THEN HLT Out pump turns ON
IF iv, v, vi, True THEN Heating element fires ON/OFF
If vii, THEN All pumps and heating element OFF


E) Chill Glycol Tank
i. {Glycol Tank PID} turns on
1. {Glycol Tank PID} controls {glycol compressor unit}
(a) set Glycol Tank PID to 25 degrees F.
ii. {Indicator light} next to [Glycol Pump] lights up
1. turn ON to power pump to circulate glycol from bottom of tank to top of tank (condensing unit cooling coils found inside tank)
iii. {Indicator light} next to [pause/resume] lights up

LOGIC FOR CHILL GLYCOL TANK
IF E True, THEN Latch E & Unlatch F
IF ii True, THEN Glycol Pump ON
IF i and ii True, THEN Compressor unit ON
IF iii True, THEN Pumps & Compressor OFF

F) Chill Fermentation Tank
i. {Glycol Tank PID} and {Fermenter PID} turn on
1. {Glycol Tank PID} controls {glycol compressor unit}
(a) set Glycol Tank PID to 25 degrees F.
2. {Fermenter PID} controls glycol pump and two solenoid valves that redirect glycol to fermenter.
(a) Set Fermenter PID to 65 degrees F.
ii. {Indicator light} next to [Glycol Pump] lights up
1. turn ON to power pump to direct glycol from bottom of tank
iii. {Indicator light} next to [pause/resume] lights up

LOGIC FOR CHILL GLYCOL TANK
IF F True, THEN Latch F & Unlatch E
IF i(1.) and ii True, THEN Compressor and pump ON
IF i(2.) and ii True, THEN Compressor unit, pump, both solenoids ON.
IF iii True, THEN Pumps, solenoids & Compressor OFF

G) CIP
i. All PIDs on Timer ON
ii. PID and Pump auto for HLT heating, Timer maybe for clean for a certain duration
iii.
H) Observe
i. All PIDs On
ii. Timer on as stopwatch.

II. POWER OFF

******************* SO MY BIG QUESTION is will a Click PLC do all of this? What's my next step?

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Old 01-27-2014, 06:27 PM   #2
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I've been looking at all of this a bit more, and have a more generalized query if someone could help. Lets say I'm using automation directs Click PLC and two momentary push button switches A and B that have individual circuits A and B respectively. What is the best way such that when I engage button "A" that it latches itself and its circuit while unlatching button "B" and its circuit? And vice versa? Thanks!

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Old 01-27-2014, 07:12 PM   #3
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I am not familiar with the Click PLCs but the ladder logic / relay logic should look something like this.

buttonslogic.jpg  
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Old 01-27-2014, 08:40 PM   #4
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Unless I'm missing something on their website, it appears that their relays only handle up to 1A so I think you would still need some standard SSR's for elements and pumps...the PLC could probably handle valves directly.

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Old 01-27-2014, 09:38 PM   #5
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It will handle everything, but I may suggesting going a AB SLC500 route.

With ebay you can get full rack cheap with regular IO cards. I got a used thermocouple card for around 100$. The licensing and programs are the issue, but with quick searching there are work arounds and used licenses. Is this commercial, if so you should get a legitimate license if you will be making money off their products? With AB stuff there is so much stuff online to help you through any struggles, no clue about automation direct. You can spool up youtube and watch videos all day long explaining step by step on how to get started. Plus thelearningpits program is a direct copy of logix500 as a training simulation.

The good part about the click is you can pretty much purchase everything new for the same price as used AB products. Also their programming software and licenses are free. Also there are so many HMI options if you run an OPC server with the CLICK or the SLC. Advance HMI is a free opensource package that uses AB DF1 comm driver, along with a few others.

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Old 01-28-2014, 01:33 AM   #6
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Looks like it has 8K memory for Steps - not sure how many rungs that would be without deep diving into the documentation.

I've programmed a DL-05 (Direct Logic) and it seemed like a nice little PLC. I wouldn't doubt that the SLC could do more but RSLogix 500 software to program them is crazy expensive. I played a little with a GE/Fanuc brick plc and it looked pretty robust.

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Old 01-31-2014, 02:03 AM   #7
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Can I ask why you are set on using a PLC? If you have no previous experence with PLC to build on I would suggest maybe looking into the Arduino microcontroller, cheap, more memory, pretty flexible and a lot of brewers are using them (plus a lot of people using them for other things!).
Just a suggestion.

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Old 01-31-2014, 02:36 AM   #8
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The simple answer is, you have 48 actual relays today, your program should require 48 coils, plus maybe a few more for tracking process steps, plus the functions you want to add. If you program them as latch and unlatch you will still probably only need just 100-150 rungs. For a SLC that number is small. I recommend writing the logic with live coils using hold ckts rather than latches/unlatches, novice programmers can cause themselves headaches with unintended consequences from retentive memory. There should be a guide to estimating memory usage in that Automation Direct PLC, maybe a phone call to their tech support will help.

Because of output ratings, not all of your actual relays can be removed, some will need to be controlled by an output and still perform the actual power distribution of their current function.

Be careful to determine if your inputs can be wired to digital or analogue input points.

There are community college and online classes for learning plc logic.

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Old 01-31-2014, 10:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atoughram View Post
Looks like it has 8K memory for Steps - not sure how many rungs that would be without deep diving into the documentation.

I've programmed a DL-05 (Direct Logic) and it seemed like a nice little PLC. I wouldn't doubt that the SLC could do more but RSLogix 500 software to program them is crazy expensive. I played a little with a GE/Fanuc brick plc and it looked pretty robust.
8k of memory is plenty.
My automated Corny keg washer uses a DL-05 PLC with a display, 203 rungs and used 1.124 k of memory.
My brewery uses a DL-06 PLC with display and DL-05 with a display as slave.
688 rungs and used 5.480 k of memory for the DL-06.
85 rungs and used 1.033 k of memory for the slave DL05.
My automated grain processing system I am working on currently has 339 rungs and used up 1.835 k.

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Old 02-01-2014, 06:09 PM   #10
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I think the click has the capability to do what you need. One thing to note is that in order to do PID control there are no pre canned function blocks available. Do a Google search search and you'll find several different methods of creating your own PID block as well as simple filtering. I've used the click plc and DL05 plc from Automation direct and I prefer the click. main reason for this is the ease of programming because you do not have to worry about number conversions between Hex, bcd, int, floating pt... for the price of the PLC and the free programming software I don't think you can beat it in terms of value. you will be buying everything at full price though because there is not much available on eBay Craigslist etc . But even the new price is about what you pay for a lot of used interface boards. Finally I found the documentation and support from Automation direct to be fantastic as I have only use these controllers for home projects but on the rare occasion I need to contact somebody it's easy to get a live person on the phone.I'm currently working on automating my small 10 gallon setup and have most of my code written. I can send a copy if you're interested.

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