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Old 03-23-2012, 09:22 AM   #101
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They take the highest ranking judges and these judges choose from all the beers in a category, that made it to the mini-bos (usually beers that scored 38 or higher), which ones take 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. Without assigning them another score, and without seeing what they scored in initial judging. If you really think about it, this makes a lot of sense.
At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:18 PM   #102
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At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.
Ive had thoughts of taking the BJCP test, but this is the one thing that keeps stopping me. I really dont think I could judge styles that AI dont like correctly. It might be perfect for its style, but if I think it tastes like crap i think the scores would be lower.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:55 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamWiz
At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.
Adam,
The beers are still, and always, judged to style. The placings are just given to the beers in order of which beers are the best example of their particular style. Not if it's a better beer then the others in that category.
Even the best of show is still done this way. For example, if u enter the best beer in the world as the wrong style and it manages to make it to BOS judging, it will(should) not win.
That would be like letting somebody who didn't know they had a flush win the hand. LOL
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:19 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamWiz
At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.
I agree with this also, rank the beers by score, if there is a tie, then do the mini bos, but only in the case two or more beers end up with the SAME score.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:27 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by mlyday

Ive had thoughts of taking the BJCP test, but this is the one thing that keeps stopping me. I really dont think I could judge styles that AI dont like correctly. It might be perfect for its style, but if I think it tastes like crap i think the scores would be lower.
It's hard for sure. But like anything, it takes training and practice. U learn what a beer style should taste like and u judge a beer on how well it hits those tastes. Whether u like the tastes or not. Along with beers u don't like u will no doubt come across beers that r contaminated and have other major issues. Even with those beers u have to be fair and work past the bad flavors and judge on how everything else did.
Judging beer is a very worthwhile thing to do. Not only for the brewers who's beer u r judging, but also for yourself as a homebrewer.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:10 PM   #106
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I think some of you are missing the point of a mini bos/bos round. it's to be more impartial. Say there are 4 pairs of judges. Pair 1 gave out 8 scores over 40. It's possible they had 8 great beers. But what 1 pair of judges might give a 45 another may give a 40. Judging is subjective. The mini bos round attempts to correct this somewhat. All the beers that were judged as best to style are then evaluated side by side by a panel of judges. at this point all these beers should be 'to style'. They are judging which beers are exceptional. To just give medals based on scores would be fine if the same judging pair judged every beer in the comp... Otherwise it would just be a waste of everyones time. The more lenient judges would always be giving out the medals at the comp. A consensus is way better.

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Old 03-24-2012, 10:59 PM   #107
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The mini bos round attempts to correct this somewhat. All the beers that were judged as best to style are then evaluated side by side by a panel of judges. at this point all these beers should be 'to style'. They are judging which beers are exceptional. To just give medals based on scores would be fine if the same judging pair judged every beer in the comp... Otherwise it would just be a waste of everyones time. The more lenient judges would always be giving out the medals at the comp. A consensus is way better.
Now this makes sense, and I think I am on board with the mini-BOS. Since some judges are going to be more lenient than others, without the mini-BOS the winners would always be just whoever got judged by the easier judges. So the first judging and scoring weeds out the not-to-style entries and narrows things down to where the most experienced judges have a more reasonable number of beers to judge for best of category and best of show. Since every beer that gets to them has already been determined to be to style, they can just focus on which beers are the most exceptional overall. I get it now, makes sense. On the other hand, this also kind of explains my earlier observation that certain subcategories seem to always beat out other subcategories they are grouped with( Alts usually beating Cali commons, Kolschs usually beating cream ales, ESBs usually beating standard/ordinary bitters, etc.) Since the mini-BOS judges aren't judging and scoring to style, it tends to come down to the more liked/respected style winning. But really there is no way to make a beer judging of so many entries totally objective, I agree now that mini-BOS is probably the best way to make things as fair as possible.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:05 PM   #108
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Funny thing - I was just looking at my scoresheets again, and the OP of this thread (Mills) actually judged 2 of my entries. And on both entries, his score was higher than the other judge - thanks Mills.

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Old 03-25-2012, 12:32 AM   #109
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From what I've been learning in the BJCP prep course I'm currently taking. I'm pretty sure they still judge to style. And not judge one beer against another. They are looking for the exceptional beers in their respective styles, not exceptional beers compared to the other beers. Though unfortunately I'm sure this happens, but it isn't how it should be done. The style guidelines, along with many other rules/regulations, are there to help remove subjectivity. Subjectivity that is bound to happen(though it shouldn't) when one judge enjoys Alt beers more then Cali Common.

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Old 03-25-2012, 12:41 AM   #110
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Experienced and well trained judges have the style guidelines memorized and know what a beer should taste like when they drink it. I've learned, and already find myself doing this, that when they taste a beer they almost immediately have a final score in their minds. The judging sheet is just to give the brewer the reason for the score and the constructive feedback most brewers are looking for.

By the way, I'm really enjoying this convo. Just hope I'm not pissing anyone off. :-)

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