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Old 12-06-2007, 04:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri_Rage

They cost 300 million per plane and are not easy or cheap to maintain.
This one's hard to defensively answer. The Russians consistently beat us in terms of cost and simplicity. Simplicity is both an advantage and a disadvantage. A simple aircraft requires simple maintenance, but a simple aircraft has simple systems that may put it at a tactical disadvantage in the sky.
If I may throw my two cents in, $300 million is a drop in the bucket when you consider our entire defense budget. Few people understand that our brains are not wired to understand large numbers (anything over 150 and we start to have a hard time) since we rarely encounter a physical manifestation of that number (ever seen 300 million of anything in one place). This is why newspapers are able to make splashy headlines whenever large numbers are involved.

If you consider that we are currently spending anywhere between $150M and $250M per day in Iraq (depending on who you listen to), $300M for a top-line aircraft that will last 20? years (someone correct me if I am wrong here) really isn't that much in the large scheme of things.

Side Note: Thanks to Yuri for the original breakdown on this, very interesting stuff.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:23 PM   #12
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Yuri_Rage

Cool- your really into the AF. Ive lost a lot of fait watching all the inside underhanded crap that goes on.

F22 while impressive is too expensive, too complicated and doesnt deliver a performance advantage worthy of its price tag.

The JSF /F35 does everything the F22 does for 1/10th the cost and even has VTOL capabilities.

F22 is just some 4 stars shiny new toy and even if it was a giant turd would be rammed down the AF throat at a huge cost to the American Tax payers
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:26 PM   #13
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TheJadedDog

300 mil times 250 planes. Lockheed didnt even have to invest thier own money in R&D over that last 15 years. The AF has paid billions for that.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:30 PM   #14
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Yuri,

What about the F-30 (just saw above post... maybe it's F-35?)? Any thoughts on it compared to this and the F-22?

I was watching something a few nights ago that mentioned this new class of fighter. Obviously there were no specifics other than it costs much less than the F22 to produce.

Pardon my civilian ignorance.

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Old 12-06-2007, 04:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJadedDog
If I may throw my two cents in, $300 million is a drop in the bucket when you consider our entire defense budget...

...$300M for a top-line aircraft that will last 20? years (someone correct me if I am wrong here) really isn't that much in the large scheme of things.
The defense budget is a big, complex, ugly animal, and I don't know enough to comment much further here.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:38 PM   #16
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Cool videos!

Yuri - How many G's are they pulling at the bottom of those loops? Looks rugged.

They seem to be doing a lot of 'slow flopping around'. This looks like a cool trick but what is the combat application?

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Old 12-06-2007, 04:43 PM   #17
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Plus- the F22 is designed for a war we will in all likely hood never see. How well has the F22 performed against terrorism? The insurgents?

Its a hugely expensive saber for the AF to rattle at no one.

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Old 12-06-2007, 04:43 PM   #18
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Mike, I am really into the AF.

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Old 12-06-2007, 04:44 PM   #19
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Thats cool- you at Holloman?

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Old 12-06-2007, 11:24 PM   #20
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Yuri - How many G's are they pulling at the bottom of those loops? Looks rugged.
Generally, not many G's. As you mention it's a lot of slow speed, low (kinetic) energy maneuvering. Some of the harder turns probably approach 9 G's, but most of it is likely a bit less - 3-5 G's perhaps.

Here's a quick and very dirty lesson in BFM (basic fighter maneuvering). The classic visual fight involves a lot of "turn circle" geometry - aligning an aircraft's turn with an adversary aircraft's turn through the use of speed (rate of closure), offset turn circles, and increasing/decreasing rate and radius maneuvers. The goal of all of this geometry is to gain an offensive advantage behind the adversary with the end state being, "in plane, in range, and with lead" to take a shot. However, when an aircraft can literally pivot on its own lateral axis, the "classic fight" is thrown out the window. Any aircraft incapable of such maneuvers will quickly find itself outclassed and probably in a smoking hole.

This thread has really been enjoyable. Thank you all for keeping things very civil, though there are obviously some topics that could cause a lot of controversy and heated emotions. Let's try and keep things lighthearted and fun!
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