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Old 05-03-2006, 01:42 AM   #21
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I must live in a cave.
I think I'm a resident of the cave next to you... then again this pulsing pacemaker would make you forget or ignor most of the world besides a pounding chest cavity.
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:26 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ultraplop
The illegals, while not having to pay any taxes except for maybe some sales tax here and there, are having a very negative effect on our economy. Not only do they remove billions of dollars out of our economy and send it to mexico, but they bog down our medical and educational systems. Many hospitals are forced to close because they are forced to take the illegals who don't have to pay a dime.
Actually, most illegals pay taxes just like you and me. Getting a taxpayer id is easier than getting a ssn, and it's a good way not to get caught, as well as be 'square' with your employer who can then withhold wages and be less accountable for hiring an illegal. They're actually paying in with little to no chance of ever getting any payout.

Do you have any references that support "billions" of $$ being sent to Mexico, or for many hospitals closing directly due to the fact that they treated illegals?
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:37 PM   #23
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Well said Baron, I had to research this while I was interning for a NJ congressman- illegals, especially migrants, pay into all kinds of taxes, and get very little back in terms of payouts from entitlement programs (medicaid/medicare, Social Security).

I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find non-anecdotal evidence of hopsitals closing for the reason you mentioned.

Phew, all this talk makes me miss my brew... but it's at home, and I'm at work. (sigh)

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Old 05-03-2006, 05:59 PM   #24
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Here is an article that talks about hospital crisis due to illegals:

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

Here is an article that talks about how much money is exported to Mexico, they estimate 13 billion.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

I would be interested to know how many illegals have Tax payorID's vs ones that don't. Its probably impossible to tell. In any case, I'm sure that many do pay taxes and that it does lessen the blow that illegal immigration does to the economy, but it is clear that it hasn't completely solved the problem.

those that do pay taxes make considerably less than most people, generally have a lot of dependants and this results in them paying very little in taxes. From what I have read, they have a very good chance of getting a payout when they file.

Of course, it makes me think, perhaps this isn't an issue of them being illegal or not, but simply so many poor people coming into the country are playing havoc on social systems. This is a problem that cannot be ignored.

Personally, I have no problems with immigrants who want to become Americans, but they need to go through the naturalization process and those that don't should not be here. Perhaps the naturalization process itself is to blame.

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Old 05-03-2006, 06:06 PM   #25
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I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find non-anecdotal evidence of hopsitals closing for the reason you mentioned.
You obviously didn't live in the South West when the law took affect in the 70's, I never heard of one closing down but a few Emergency rooms closed down, or limited services to "life threatening" care only.

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illegals, especially migrants, pay into all kinds of taxes
If true thats a good thing, the fact they can't get SS is good.
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:15 PM   #26
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My main problem is that some people are talking about rewarding people for thumbing their nose at our laws. When you tell someone that if they've been breaking the law for 7 years, you're going to go ahead and make them legal, that's you're doing.

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Old 05-03-2006, 06:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultraplop
Here is an article that talks about hospital crisis due to illegals:

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

Here is an article that talks about how much money is exported to Mexico, they estimate 13 billion.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html
The first link looks like an opinion piece by a biased source to me, and I don't see any links to any data that indicates any hospitals have closed due to the costs of illegal immigrants. She does make this statement:
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What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America's finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing their doors.
But she doesn't actually cite any sources or data, or specifically link the 84 CA hospitals to immigrants. She doesn't provide any sort of quantitative analysis of how services have been "degraded", or who decided they were the "finest emergency medical facilities." I know a lot of hospitals around me have closed, but it had nothing to do with immigrants...it was because the larger hospitals crowded them out, annexed them, or they were shut down by the State.

The second link I'll definitely take a look at at home because most of the sources cited aren't accessible to me through the fartsmilter at work (which usually means a politically biased source as opposed to unaffiliated research center). I'm surprised it's in the billions, but it's certainly plausible considering the # of immigrants both legal and illegal. But you have to track the money further than that. My in-laws in Guadalajara buy groceries at a chain owned by a US umbrella corporation. They shop at Wal-Mart on Saturday just like my wife and I do (well, not if I can help it, but that's another story ), and my FIL buys piles of crap at Home Depot. So a lot of that money comes right back.

Now we have a trade imbalance with Mexico because we've traded the cheap manufacturing jobs for higher-skilled, higher-wage jobs. Mexico is swiftly losing those jobs to Asia, and perhaps that imbalance will shift there in future decades.

Which isn't to say I disagree with your basic premise, in fact I agree with you. I don't think people should be allowed to be here illegally "outside of the system" which puts undue stress on the system. But I think the gov'ts of Mexico (and other Latin American countries) and the US are to blame. The US for not recognizing that most of the illegals are working and filling needs and that the system should work for these people, and Mexico for thinking that their inability to administer a semi-effective gov't which drives their citizens out is somehow our problem. Fox shouldn't be asking us why we don't legalize the illegals...he should be asking WTF is wrong with Mexico that they want to leave in the first place.
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Baron von BeeGee
Which isn't to say I disagree with your basic premise, in fact I agree with you. I don't think people should be allowed to be here illegally "outside of the system" which puts undue stress on the system. But I think the gov'ts of Mexico (and other Latin American countries) and the US are to blame. The US for not recognizing that most of the illegals are working and filling needs and that the system should work for these people, and Mexico for thinking that their inability to administer a semi-effective gov't which drives their citizens out is somehow our problem. Fox shouldn't be asking us why we don't legalize the illegals...he should be asking WTF is wrong with Mexico that they want to leave in the first place.
That's a good point. I definitely to blame for sometimes putting it all on the illegals, but if I was in their position and saw a way to make things better for my family I'd jump on it.

I still think that the basic premise of "A day without an immigrant," was off. this whole debate is about illegal aliens, not immigrants. Also, I don't like being threatened, and that is what I took that day as.
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:28 PM   #29
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Quote:
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That's a good point. I definitely to blame for sometimes putting it all on the illegals, but if I was in their position and saw a way to make things better for my family I'd jump on it.

I still think that the basic premise of "A day without an immigrant," was off. this whole debate is about illegal aliens, not immigrants. Also, I don't like being threatened, and that is what I took that day as.
Agreed on both points. It was a stupid way (IMO) for them to try to make their point. They've actually done "legal" walk-ins at the State legislature here in NC and gotten just as much press (and it was actually good press).
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Emporer BillyBrew
My main problem is that some people are talking about rewarding people for thumbing their nose at our laws. When you tell someone that if they've been breaking the law for 7 years, you're going to go ahead and make them legal, that's you're doing.
Homebrewing used to be illegal.
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