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Old 08-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by KingBrianI View Post
Oh, man. Is it me or are dog breeders nuts? Let me tell you a quick story of how some stuff just went down and you tell me if I'm overreacting or if my response was justified. My wife is upset at how I handled the situation, but there's only so much abuse a man can take before he says enough.

Here's a little background. We bought a doberman from a reputedly very good breeder back around May. We had been in contact with her and her partner for at least a year prior to this waiting for a puppy to come available. From the conversations and a visit to their house during the waiting time, we knew they were eccentric but were willing to deal with it because we thought their dogs were very good. Every time we spoke though, they would put my wife and I down for any ideas we had or questions we asked that wasn't 100% in line with their way of doing something. They advocate things like not vaccinating because they're worried about the effects it could have on the dog and they recommended supplementing the puppies with calcium (which is completely opposite of everything I've read in regards to puppy feeding) among other things. The subject that caused the recent problems was based on their recommended feeding plan. They feed what I consider a low quality food (Bil-Jac Adult Select) and supplement it with a ground raw meat product marketed for pet consumption. We slowly switched over to a high quality kibble after bringing the puppy home, but continued feeding the raw supplement for a few months. We quit giving the raw for a couple of reasons. First, there is a lot written about not mixing kibble with raw feeding. Apparently, the enzymes needed to break them down are different and mixing them can cause stomach issues and improper digestion. Secondly, high quality kibble is formulated to provide complete nutrition to a dog. By supplementing with the raw, which means he wouldn't be eating as much kibble, I felt it could cause the dog to not get enough of some particular nutrients. Below is a recent email conversation between the breeder and myself.

Email from me to breeder:

Hey Guys,


It's Brian. We've been meaning to send you some pics of Brolly for a while so I took a couple today to let you see what a handsome boy he is becoming. The pictures were taken between postings so you could see how his ears are coming and perhaps comment on any changes we need to make. He's been a great companion and is making a lot of progress in training. Everyone comments on how beautiful he is but we get lots of questions about those funny things on his head. Here are the pictures. Please let me know if you have any recommendations on his ears.

Brian







Response from breeder:

Brian

How much are you feeding him with each meal ? and are you feeding him raw meat, the BlueRidge beef that we told you to get , , , He needs that with each meal and you can see his ribs so tell me how much you are feeding him ?????

Best and the ears look very good., just keep taping them for another month at least !!!



My response:

Hi ,


We were giving 2 cups of food twice a day, but have noticed like you that he is starting to get skinny so are upping it to 3 cups twice a day. He's 60-65 lbs right now and the vet has been happy with his body condition at every visit. We stopped supplementing with the Blue Ridge beef a couple of months ago and he is on a strictly kibble diet with the addition of the supplements you recommended. The food we are using is Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lover's Soul for Large Breed Puppies.


We would love to see a picture of his sister if you have one!


Thanks,


Brian


Breeder's response 1:

May I ask you WHY you have changed his diet from what I asked you to feed, , , , , first he needs raw meat and why did you stop the BilJac????? He is thin and at his age should never eat 6 cups of food a day for his age. !!!!!!!!! Look at the Protein % of the food he is eating and tell me what it is and what the first 4 ingredients are in this food. I would bet big money that the food he is eating has 27 or 29% protein in it !!!
Very bad !

I am very disappointed that you are not listening to us.. Please answer my questions


Breeder's response 2 (before I could respond to the first response):

Brian

I want you to know that this food is made by Diamond dog food co. and this company has had several recalls on their foods with substances found in the food and has made some dogs very very sick. and dead and put them into renal failure. The Vets get NO training with nutrition so they know nothing about it except what they are being paid to sell and tell you to use. I am very disapointed in you and Erin and if your dogs can save him in time !! gets really sick don't call me ! If I can see ribs in a email picture I know he will have ribs sticking out that I can feel in person and that is NOT good . He did NOT look like this when he left our house.
giving him more amount of food does not solve the problem it messes up his immune system. He is not using this crapy food well at all and that is why he looks like he does. I wish you good luck and if your Vet or whoever told you to use this food is an idiot !! Feeding him that much food can put him into bloat which will give you a dead dog and a huge Vet bill !! I am sorry that you do not trust us enough to listen to us !! That is why I spend so much time talking with everyone when they come.
I made a mistake selling you one of my beautiful dogs and forgive me for being so harsh and I did not judge you both very well. I will add into my contract from hence forth that if the dog food that I ask you to feed is not done I have the legal right to come get my dog back !! Good luck



That's when my patience ended. The following was my response. I feel like it was justified but let me know from your outside perspectives whether you think it was an overreaction:

,

I cannot recall one conversation between us that you have not attacked or criticized me for something. I have two suggestions for you. First, don't write emails when you're off your meds. Have Tammy hide the keyboard if you need to. Secondly, if you do insist on throwing these tantrums via email, at least proof read them before you send them. Half of what you wrote is incomprehensible.

Now, on to the subject of dog food. Yes, I am aware that Diamond had a couple recalls a few months ago. We have been monitoring the batches and none of them were effected.

My vet did not choose the dog food, I did. If that makes me an idiot, then those who choose Biljac must be complete morons. You asked what the first 4 ingredients of this "crappy" food were. Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, turkey meal. If you feel like the first 4 ingredients of a food are important, I'm surprised you like Biljac so much. It's first 4 ingredients are chicken, chicken by-products, corn meal, chicken by-product meal. You also mentioned that if the food we were feeding had 27 or 29% protein, that it was "very bad". The food we are feeding does have 27% protein, which is exactly what Biljac Adult Select contains.

You stated that you were sorry we didn't trust you enough to listen to you. When you have these hyperbolic, end-of-the world fits, it makes it hard to trust what you are saying. If you would like to have a reasonable, sane conversation, please respond, but I doubt it is within your abilities. If people who are capable of doing their own research and making thier own informed decisions without blindly following the ravings of a seemingly unstable lunatic aren't who you want to buy your puppies, I feel sorry for the dogs.

Meanwhile, Brolly is happy and healthy and we are having a great time with him.
Well said!
Regards, GF.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:28 AM   #12
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My german shorthair was about a year old before I stopped seeing his ribs. I feed him Iams puppy large breed food and I have been feeding him 2 to 3 times as much as the bag recommends. He spends a lot of his time running, so he burns a lot of calories, the vet says that he is in excellent condition.

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Old 08-30-2012, 01:22 PM   #13
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FYI: there is currently a Biljac dogfood recall:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-fo...g-food-recall/
Send that to the nutty breeder; with a smirk!
Regards, GF.

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Old 08-30-2012, 01:45 PM   #14
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Some breeders are just nuts. Either don't get a pup from them (too late now in your case), or cease communication.

People worry too much about their dogs diet. If the dog is healthy, has a good coat, doesn't have bowel problems, etc., then you're doing it right.

My 2 Aussies were overweight when I got them. Did I switch dog food brands? Of course not, as everything else was fine. I slightly reduced their food intake and increased their workout regimen (4 miles a day with me). They've both lost some weight and look great.

MC

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Old 08-30-2012, 01:48 PM   #15
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Wow! Lunatic is right. We got a dog from a reputable breeder 2 years ago. It was a great experience. She was laid back but I could still tell she cared about her dogs. The only nutritional advice she gave us was about when to switch to adult food. She did give us a jug of her home tap water so we could ween him over to our tap water to prevent any digestive issue. This made sense to me. Other than that we love our breeder. We send her pictures at Christmas and everything.
Yes dog people can be crazy and you have to watch out for some of them. Your response to this lunatic was great and reminds me of something my wife or I would have sent. Im sorry you're have such a bad experience. If you ever decide to go through a breeder again try going to that breeds american club site. They have a code of ethics that every breeder belonging to the club abides by. IMO my dog is worth every penny we paid. Rescuing is noble and I have 2. But my pure bred is just a different type of dog all together. I love them all. Good luck.

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Old 08-30-2012, 02:00 PM   #16
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Yep, crazy.

Regarding your response: I find total ignore is the best way. I understand the desire to get down in the mud and duke it out, but with that type of person you can't "win".

Seriously, is it possible to just ignore?

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Old 08-30-2012, 02:05 PM   #17
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I know a guy who bought 2 terriers from a breeder. In the contract for sale there is a clause stipulating each year on the anniversary of the sale the owner was to read a one page letter aloud to his wife and dogs. The letter was a short story about the woes of allowing your terriers to be off leash near traffic and is a tearjerker. I know he still has the letter but I don't know if he actually reads it aloud each year but his dogs are always on leash when out of the home.

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Old 08-30-2012, 02:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BrewerinBR View Post
If those breeders are AKC and registered please report them to the AKC they need to loose their registration.
Lol. The AKC would back the breeders.

While the breeders are a bit 'eccentric' to put it nicely -- they have a good point. You need denser nutrients, not more food which is why they supplement the kibble with raw foods. I dunno where the kibble vs kibble debate same in
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:27 PM   #19
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wow just wow.

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Old 08-30-2012, 02:48 PM   #20
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they are nuts, not for the emails, but for docking the tail and cropping the ears on that poor dog, the only reason the tail was ever docked on dogs was when they were working dogs, so guard dogs woudlnt play with their tail and dogs who pulled wagons wouldnt always run over their tail with the wheels. and the ears with because people thought if their ear flaps were gone they would hear better, docking and cropping is illegal most everywhere now and considered cruel, its a shame its still legal in the US, and dobermans are beautiful dogs when they are complete looking. also whats up with your dogs ears, even though they are cropped, it looks like whoever did it, did a horrible job, either that or they arent healed correctly yet.
You don't think her email is nuts? She is going to reserve the right to take back any future dog that isn't fed to her specification? For me it's time for the men in white coats to come get them.

Docking dog's tails came from several historical things and I doubt wagon pulling had much to do with most of them. Many german hunting dogs have their tails docked because they work in dense woods and the breeds did not have strong tails. Their tails would bang around hitting trees literally tearing them to shreds or even breaking them in some cases, much more humane to dock them. These were dogs that were never hitched to a wagon.

In fact anyone who hitches a dog to a wagon that gets it's tail run over is just doing it wrong. The hitch pole is just too short in that case.

I got a dog 2 years ago from a breeder who was a little nuts, good hunting dog, but I had some issues in my job due to the economy and had to take a new one where I travel and couldn't take care of the dog so I gave him to another hunter. The breeder called me to see how the dog was doing and I told him the story, he berated me for being irresponsible and not forseeing the potential that I would have to make a change. He told me a dog was a 12-18 year commitment and if I wasn't sure I could keep the dog that long I shouldn't have bought him. Really? I have to be able to predict national economic conditions for the next 12-18 years in order to buy a dog? If I could do that, I'd be rich enough to hire someone to train, feed and wash the dog's tush on a daily basis.
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