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Old 01-04-2013, 06:05 AM   #151
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Hell yes it does. Every router I've seen shipped in the last... oh, almost 10 years, has come with the security pre-set to 'Enabled' (PSA with key). You have to manually disable security on a modern router for it to be public.
No it doesn't.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:11 AM   #152
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Nobody has stolen any bandwidth from me. I run a very tight ship in that regard.

As I mentioned earlier, it seems a very basic principle to me that you don't take what isn't yours without explicit permission so I react strongly to what seems contrary to that.
Most people will agree that theft is wrong. Taking is theft only when it deprives a person of something which is rightfully theirs. That's why copying a DVD is considered copyright infringement, not theft.

The minimal browsing we're talking about here does not deprive the use of use of their internet connection, not do they get them charged more for it.

It's great that you have your idiom to live by. Good for you. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a universal truth, which is what morality is concerned with.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:16 AM   #153
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Nobody has stolen any bandwidth from me. I run a very tight ship in that regard.

As I mentioned earlier, it seems a very basic principle to me that you don't take what isn't yours without explicit permission so I react strongly to what seems contrary to that.
You're applying your own ethics to the situation to determine your story. That's fine, but you cannot force your own moral paradigm upon someone else as an absolute.

There isn't enough legal precedent on file to make an absolute statement about the legality of using open wifi. The fact that open, public wifi is abundant in major metropolitan areas further muddies the water.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:22 AM   #154
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I disagree. Call it ignorance or plain stupidity, there are lots of people that simply buy a wireless router and hook it up with no understanding of the implication. That's like taking candy from a baby. It's not really an informed choice.
IME, those are the same people that get the router from their ISP and use the default password that's on it. Luckily, the better/smarter ISP's are now making those passwords stronger and harder to crack.

To the original question about it being wrong... IMO, it is. It's the same as a neighbor coming over and using your gas grill without asking you. Would you be ok with that? How about the neighbor you've never even met doing it? How about some schmuck driving by? I have the utility on my wireless devices to scan the airwaves to see what AP's are out there and if they're secure or not. For the past few years, the number of unsecured routers has dropped to either zero, or damned close to it whenever I've checked. If the person has a router setup with a 'guest' path, then they are allowing people to connect up and use it. If it doesn't have something that actually says 'guest' in the SSID, then it's not intended for that.

On my own wireless router, I have it locked down so that I have to enter the key for anything that's going to connect to it. That's through either the 2.4GHz or 5GHz bandwidths.

It's been too long since I've set up a new router, so I can't say (for certain) if it came with a password on the wireless side or not. I believe that Linksys/Cisco routers do come with it enabled by default. I also think it asks you to change the admin password, but that might have just been me not liking the crappy strength default one. Keep in mind, my router is a WRT610N (first version) so it's more than a few years old now. I do think my sister/brother-in-law's password for their router is a joke. It would be in the first 5-10 things a hacker would try using to break in. Maybe I'm more paranoid than they are, or I just care more about my network's security, but I make sure my passwords are all at least "strong". At some point I'll go to the level above that. It's just easier to remember 8-10 character combination than 13-15. Especially when you use the full range of characters in order to get that higher security level of password.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:23 AM   #155
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Again, arguable, since many ISP have caps. Most, however, seem not enforced unless you're a flagrant violator. That said, I pay $xx.xx/mo and in exchange for that I'm entitled to 250GB per month. Every single bit of that is mine, not anyone else's to use without my permission.

Point being, if I'm deprived of even just one bit it's theft because that bit is one I no longer have in the bank, per se.

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Old 01-04-2013, 06:24 AM   #156
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It's the same as a neighbor coming over and using your gas grill without asking you.
How is this the same? Your neighbor is depriving you of using you grill during the time he's using it. He's also using your gas, which is quite finite and has worth. And he's putting wear-and-tear on your grill.

None of these things are true with WiFi.

Also, the ones that do say 'guest' in the SSID are usually Cisco/Linksys routers. That's a feature that ships enabled by default. Connecting to the SSID doesn't provide internet access, and it's segmented from the rest of your network, until you manually provision them permissions with your admin login.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:28 AM   #157
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You're applying your own ethics to the situation to determine your story. That's fine, but you cannot force your own moral paradigm upon someone else as an absolute.
I'm in full agreement that I can't force it on anyone. What disappoints me is that that point should even come up because it seems that fundamental to a functional society. Don't take what isn't yours. It's really beyond my comprehension why this seems to be a point of contention.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:28 AM   #158
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To the original question about it being wrong... IMO, it is. It's the same as a neighbor coming over and using your gas grill without asking you. Would you be ok with that? How about the neighbor you've never even met doing it?
That's a terrible analogy and completely irrelevant to the situation.

I personally would use a neighbors open wifi in a pinch, but I wouldn't use it permanently as my primary source of Internet and I certainly wouldn't use it in a manner that would impact their quality of service.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:31 AM   #159
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Don't take what isn't yours.
We're going in circles here.

Unsubscribed. Night all!
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:32 AM   #160
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How is this the same?
See post #155.
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