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Old 02-25-2012, 05:09 PM   #1
bdjohns1
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Default Trying to find one of P-J's old layouts

P-J,

I'm trying to locate one of your older wiring diagrams - but apparently I can no longer just browse the index of your images folder. I've been lurking for a while in "sponge mode" just soaking up ideas.

I'm looking for one of your existing diagrams that basically covered a scenario like this just to sanity check myself - I don't want you to go to the extra time to re-draw anything. If I can't assimilate the concepts from your different diagrams, I figure I shouldn't be playing.

Supplied from 50A GFCI spa panel, but upstream breaker is 30A, so that's the real limiter.
2x 4500 or 5500 W elements (HLT and BK)
A 3-pos selector switch (2x NO blocks, maintained L/R, center off) to enable only one element - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SIE...r-Switch-6FPJ8
The selector switch is 120V, going to the coils on a couple of DPDT relays - so that the element not in use is 100% cut off - the SSR output leg goes to one side of the relay, and the other hot line is on the other side.
40A SSRs driven off separate Auberins PIDs
2x March 120V pumps
120V SPST toggles for the pumps and PID power.

Here's the relays I'm using - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Relay-1EJG7 - rated for 30A resistive load up to 277VAC.

If I remember right, the correct way to do this is to put the relay between the SSR and the element for the hot leg supplied from the SSR - basically, the same design you do using Auber's contactors.

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Old 02-25-2012, 06:46 PM   #2
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Not P-J but was it the one on this thread:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/thi...erting-276279/

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Old 02-25-2012, 08:43 PM   #3
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Is it this one?

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Old 02-25-2012, 08:50 PM   #4
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Not quite on either of those. I've got two PIDs, two SSRs, and two relays. I want to ensure that regardless of what the PIDs are doing, only one element is powered based on the switch setting.

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Old 02-26-2012, 12:33 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdjohns1 View Post
Not quite on either of those. I've got two PIDs, two SSRs, and two relays. I want to ensure that regardless of what the PIDs are doing, only one element is powered based on the switch setting.
Describe your desired system a little more in detail. Perhaps I can help.

P-J

BTW: Thanks guys for following & useing some of my diagrams.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:50 AM   #6
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PJ, I think those diagrams help people more than you will ever know. I've learned a ton looking over them.

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Old 02-26-2012, 02:24 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P-J View Post
Describe your desired system a little more in detail. Perhaps I can help.
P-J
Awesome. Here's the concise version:

Main feed from my panel is a 40A, 8-gauge to spa panel with 50A GFCI, 8-gauge to control panel.

System design:

10-gallon HLT with HERMS coil, 5500W element.
10-gallon cooler MLT
15-gallon brew kettle, 5500W element

Auber 2352 PIDs, Auber 40A SSRs going to both the HLT and BK. Separate dryer plugs for each one.

2 March pumps with run of the mill SPST toggles for power. Another run of the mill SPST for power to the PIDs.

The power relays and element selector switch are as described above in my OP - just want to ensure that only one element can draw power at a time. I figured that for all practical effects, I could just use one of your 2-PID designs with contactors, since the relays are 120V to actuate, and can handle 30A resistive loads at >240V.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:56 PM   #8
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Ok, so I spent a little more time flexing my search muscles, and I'm pretty sure that with a couple of minor tweaks, WAORGANY's diagram is basically right for me:



The major difference in design is that I should only have one element drawing power at any given time based on my 40A upstream breaker and wire gauge used. So, illuminated switches 1/2 on the above diagram get replaced with the 3-position 2NO selector switch. Feed from Line 1 comes into one end of each NO block. NO Block on the left goes up to the coil on the relay for the HLT, NO block on the right goes to the BK.

Down on the PID front, no alarm circuitry needed.

Pump/PID power, I'm just skipping the circuitry needed associated with lighting up buttons.

(note: I oversized myself to 40A even though this design could work on 30A. What I'm not covering (or asking to draw up) is that if I ever decide to play with RIMS instead, I should have enough current headroom to allow a lower wattage element for the RIMS tube. I'm actually installing a 3rd PID controller which for now will just give me temperature in the MLT discharge line. Plus, I added a 110V breaker in my spa panel so I can have an accessory outlet to plug in an overhead fluorescent light - the part of the basement I'm setting up in isn't well-lit right now.

I'm hoping that my panel comes out looking nice - I'm on the leadership team of a cheese plant here in WI, and I do a lot of process improvement work, which means I spend a lot of quality time with our PLC guys and electrical technicians. It's not only about the beer-making for me - knowing this stuff a little better helps me work with them more effectively - I've been chatting with one of our electricians on some of this stuff to get ideas as well. At work, we're a bit more hardcore. I'd guesstimate we've got a few dozen A/B PLCs all over the plant, FactoryTalk, etc. Of all of that automation, I have 3 rungs of ladder code in production to my name

If I were allowed to take pictures and share publically, I could probably make a lot of people around here drool over the massive control cabinets, HMI stations, etc.

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Old 02-26-2012, 08:08 PM   #9
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bdjohns1,

You presented an interesting challange with your 40A feed. This changed the entire relm of the brewery controller set up. With a 30A feed, you do not need breakers within the controller. 40A's requires breakers within the control panel.

I have never drawn a diagram for a setup using multi PIDs with a power input less than 50A.

Now you challenged me.!!! ??? AND you want simple toggle switches???

Ok.. You are on. Switch #1 is the key. It is a Double pole - Double throw - Center off - switch. The breakers must be placed due to the 40A power feed. (30A feed? you do not need the breakers. (But... updates to another scene with this becomes very easy.)

Click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")

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Old 02-26-2012, 08:25 PM   #10
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Oh... And a RIMs setup? Forget about it. Seriously - get that out of your head.

I have my STRONG reasons for my opinion on that.

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