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Old 12-04-2012, 07:18 PM   #61
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Yes. I should have written

"The side of the transformer secondary which is not connected to the outlet hot is bonded to the G wire/box."

and I edited the post to show that. The real point, which I guess wasn't that clear, is that the isolated secondary (the derived system) can be grounded to the house ground through using the house's grounding conductor and that the neutral of the derived system should be bonded to the house ground at the transformer.

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:03 AM   #62
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So now that we know this isnt the best idea. What can go wrong?

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:31 AM   #63
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So now that we know this isnt the best idea. What can go wrong?
While I am not tremendously knowledgeable about this, as I have previously demonstrated , here is my take:

1) Wiring 3 wires (H-H-N) into the GFCI spa panel, bonding neutral to ground in the panel, then running four wires out (H-H-N-G) does not conform to code.

2) Making the GFCI spa panel a plug in device (not hard-wired), as a practical matter, evades problems with code since you are not changing your house wiring, so do not require an inspection.

3) What can go wrong? My assumption is the same thing that can go wrong with your dryer on a H-H-N with neutral bonded to ground on the dryer chassis, which is presumably why they changed the code to require a dedicated ground wire. Since neutral is bonded to ground in the spa panel chassis, you would not want to be standing barefoot, in a puddle, conducting a shorter path to ground, if a failure condition caused the spa panel to be carrying 120V.

Electricians, feel free to correct and clarify as necessary.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:33 AM   #64
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So now that we know this isnt the best idea. What can go wrong?
Excellent question! Now we will get to the bottom of this There are reasons: I just need some time...
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by jeffmeh View Post
While I am not tremendously knowledgeable about this, as I have previously demonstrated , here is my take:

1) Wiring 3 wires (H-H-N) into the GFCI spa panel, bonding neutral to ground in the panel, then running four wires out (H-H-N-G) does not conform to code.

2) Making the GFCI spa panel a plug in device (not hard-wired), as a practical matter, evades problems with code since you are not changing your house wiring, so do not require an inspection.

3) What can go wrong? My assumption is the same thing that can go wrong with your dryer on a H-H-N with neutral bonded to ground on the dryer chassis, which is presumably why they changed the code to require a dedicated ground wire. Since neutral is bonded to ground in the spa panel chassis, you would not want to be standing barefoot, in a puddle, conducting a shorter path to ground, if a failure condition caused the spa panel to be carrying 120V.

Electricians, feel free to correct and clarify as necessary.
Again, not an electrician, but I think that's a fairly good overall assessment. I do call into contention point #2 a bit though because NEC does have codes for cord and plug connected equipment....which dictate using equipment ground, not neutral, regarding grounding of metal parts (with a few exceptions, but not spa panels and home brew equipment). Point being, I think trying to skate out of Code on the spa panel saying it doesn't apply because it's not part of the premises is a red herring.

I think using the spa panel in in the method illustrated, aside from the benefit of GFI, pretty much violates at least a few Code articles (or whatever they're called).
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:57 AM   #66
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So now that we know this isnt the best idea. What can go wrong?
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Excellent question! Now we will get to the bottom of this There are reasons: I just need some time...
One, maybe the biggest one, I think, is as jeffmeh pointed out. If you have any derived (L1-N and or L2-N) 120V loads and neutral to the main panel is lost (or degraded) you could have up to 120V on any "grounded" metal parts.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:56 AM   #67
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I am standing in awe with all of the absolute bashing that I'm taking with my diagrams.

So be it. No more. You are all on your own from now on.

During the past few days I have received many PM's for custom diagrams (over 30). No more. I'm done with all of the critics and the BS.

I've invested a lot here.

Bide your time. I've no need any more to invest my money in my web site to host information for this community of severe critics. I'll be taking it all down and not contributing here any more. I'm really tired of all the BS.

Wishing you all the best as your attacks on me have been very successful.

By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.

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Old 12-05-2012, 03:08 AM   #68
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By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.
Sorry you take it as a personal attack. I don't believe that's the way any of the disagreement is intended.

I have ZERO doubt on your sincerity to provide help and assistance, but people tend to gravitate to what they want to hear...generally simple and cheap vs. complex and expensive (relatively speaking), regardless of anything else.

Since you've fired both barrels by calling "BS" on the discussion of applicable code, please feel free to cite the specific NEC that condones this approach. I'm sure we're all ears, collectively speaking.

IMO, this is about shared learning and knowledge for the betterment and safety of all, not about pointing the finger at P-J.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by P-J View Post
I am standing in awe with all of the absolute bashing that I'm taking with my diagrams.

So be it. No more. You are all on your own from now on.

During the past few days I have received many PM's for custom diagrams (over 30). No more. I'm done with all of the critics and the BS.

I've invested a lot here.

Bide your time. I've no need any more to invest my money in my web site to host information for this community of severe critics. I'll be taking it all down and not contributing here any more. I'm really tired of all the BS.

Wishing you all the best as your attacks on me have been very successful.

By the way - All of you "code" rulers do not have a clue. Preach on with your pure BS.!

Do it your way now.
Haha. Again?
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:33 AM   #70
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I agree. Although the receptacles are grandfathered for use with a dryer or range, I can’t see how that still applies when plugging in something other than those specific appliances.
It's the existing wiring that is being grandfathered in & not the dryer or stove, and because so many houses are wired three wire the industry has to support the old standard with three range and dryer wire plugs.

Because of this it does not matter what's being plugged into the grandfathered wiring. This is also why it is perfectly legal (and safe) to plug you PROPERLY WIRED brew rig into a 3 wire 240V 30 Amp (dryer) or 50 Amp (range) outlet. And proper wiring for one of these outlets is to connect both ground and neutral to the third (white or outside braid) wire!

The Home Depot SPA panel is just a convenient way to add a GFCI breaker into the wiring for those who want one.
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