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Old 12-05-2012, 07:28 AM   #91
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Except that here the bible is based on sound engineering principles and decades of experience in fire prevention and safety enhancing techniques. Unlike the bible the code can be updated as the needs of the industry change and as new risks and technologies are discovered.

Also I must say I haven't seen any personal attacks (well maybe a couple of small ones). Apparently some consider questioning of their positions as personal attacks but picking up your marbles and stomping off the playground isn't a very mature attitude and is not one conducive to development of deeper understanding.

Someone complained that the code makes unreasonable demands on us when we build our own equipment. The code does not expect you to build your own equipment. It expects us to buy 'listed' equipment or equipment which has UL or other certifying laboratory seal of approval. Knowing that "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity." I want any equipment I build to be as compliant with it as possible because there are reasons for all the provisions. This does put a heavy burden on me because the damn thing isn't exactly light reading. Grounding is a particularly difficult area because the reasons for the grounding rules aren't always obvious. As a consequence I've had professional electricians miswire panels in my house and I have also stumbled onto professional electricians' bulletin boards where essentially this same subject is debated with equal heat (and real personal attacks). Interesting.

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Old 12-05-2012, 07:40 AM   #92
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AJ, you've wrapped this up. I vote for sticky. Or submit your article for membership. You seem to have technical writing mastered.

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Old 12-05-2012, 08:22 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
Except that here the bible is based on sound engineering principles and decades of experience in fire prevention and safety enhancing techniques. Unlike the bible the code can be updated as the needs of the industry change and as new risks and technologies are discovered.

Also I must say I haven't seen any personal attacks (well maybe a couple of small ones). Apparently some consider questioning of their positions as personal attacks but picking up your marbles and stomping off the playground isn't a very mature attitude and is not one conducive to development of deeper understanding.

Someone complained that the code makes unreasonable demands on us when we build our own equipment. The code does not expect you to build your own equipment. It expects us to buy 'listed' equipment or equipment which has UL or other certifying laboratory seal of approval. Knowing that "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity." I want any equipment I build to be as compliant with it as possible because there are reasons for all the provisions. This does put a heavy burden on me because the damn thing isn't exactly light reading. Grounding is a particularly difficult area because the reasons for the grounding rules aren't always obvious. As a consequence I've had professional electricians miswire panels in my house and I have also stumbled onto professional electricians' bulletin boards where essentially this same subject is debated with equal heat (and real personal attacks). Interesting.
I mostly agree with you - I was a practicing electrician for many years. I've seen my share of electrician screw-ups like floating grounds and reverse wiring (hot on white, neutral on black). But NEC does not expect you to buy any plug-in device to any code because the NEC covers wiring. The sentince you quoted "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity." includes that 1930's antique electric fan you may have bought off eBay, or one of the 1920's - 1940's vacuum tube radio I restore, all of which use non-polarized plugs and have exposed metal parts, and all of which carry no modern UL certification.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:11 PM   #94
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Say the spa panel is mounted on the brew stand and connected to a pre-1996 50a range outlet (H-H-N). Is it possible/safe/legal to drive another grounding rod to connect the spa panel earth ground. You wouldn't be connecting the neutral and grounding wires at any point and you'd have a true 4 wire system for the spa panel.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I don't remember reading a response to the idea.

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:26 PM   #95
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I don't see how the NEC could possibly expect everyone to buy and read the NEC code book before they plug something in. It's just unrealistic and too far reaching IMO.
The NEC doesn't expect people, generally speaking, to buy and read the NEC code book. However, most people aren't wiring up spa panels and fabricating electric brew systems, et al. The average consumer is plugging in a lamp, or a TV, or a welder that they purchased as a complete, tested, and approved unit.

General consumer safety relies on engineers and manufacturers to adhere to sound practices guided by NEC and perhaps UL, and such devices passing the appropriate certification and approval criteria, so the average Joe doesn't have to be a Code expert. What's going on here is a completely different matter.

DEIT: Sorry...more or less a duplicate of AJ's post...
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:44 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thargrav View Post
But NEC does not expect you to buy any plug-in device to any code because the NEC covers wiring. The sentince you quoted "The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity." includes that 1930's antique electric fan you may have bought off eBay, or one of the 1920's - 1940's vacuum tube radio I restore, all of which use non-polarized plugs and have exposed metal parts, and all of which carry no modern UL certification.
What's your point here...that we should continue to foster 1920's ways, despite the knowledge and insight gained in roughly the last 90 years?

You're right in the semantics sense that NEC doesn't expect you to buy any device to any given code, but that's not license to intentionally or unintentionally violate NEC when it has articles that specifically apply to cord and plug connected equipment. 250.114 is very clear in this statement and is pretty much proof positive that NEC doesn't stop at the receptacle or hard-wired installations.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:08 PM   #97
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What's your point here...that we should continue to foster 1920's ways, despite the knowledge and insight gained in roughly the last 90 years?

You're right in the semantics sense that NEC doesn't expect you to buy any device to any given code, but that's not license to intentionally or unintentionally violate NEC when it has articles that specifically apply to cord and plug connected equipment. 250.114 is very clear in this statement and is pretty much proof positive that NEC doesn't stop at the receptacle or hard-wired installations.
No, my real point is we need to stop nit-picking eack other's opinions.

If you understand electrical wiring and want to use the SPA panel then go ahead and wire it yourself. But if you are unsure you should hire an electrician.

Quote:
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Say the spa panel is mounted on the brew stand and connected to a pre-1996 50a range outlet (H-H-N). Is it possible/safe/legal to drive another grounding rod to connect the spa panel earth ground. You wouldn't be connecting the neutral and grounding wires at any point and you'd have a true 4 wire system for the spa panel.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I don't remember reading a response to the idea.
Yes you can legally and safely run a separate ground wire to the SPA panel, and if you do, the new ground has to be completely isolated from the neutral wire coming in. But you need to look at your local code requirements for sub-panel grounding.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:22 PM   #98
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Is it still considered a sub-panel if its a plug in device?

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Old 12-05-2012, 02:31 PM   #99
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Is it still considered a sub-panel if its a plug in device?
It is not a sub-panel of it's plugged in.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:38 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thargrav View Post
...
Yes you can legally and safely run a separate ground wire to the SPA panel, and if you do, the new ground has to be completely isolated from the neutral wire coming in. But you need to look at your local code requirements for sub-panel grounding.
Try this idea: The scene is a farm with a barn on the property. The electric power is set up and delivered to the house. Power to the barn is run on overhead wires delivering 120/240V. In every case, the power is delivered as a 3 wire system and ground at the barn is established at that service panel using a grounding rod.
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