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Old 04-03-2013, 07:29 PM   #1
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Default Supply side (Main and Spa Panel) layout questions

Ok so I am sorting out the supply side of my new system up to the Control enclosure. I put together the diagram below.



Since the links are not clickable in the jpg here they are again. These are examples. Some of the items are already sourced, some I will pick up from Lowe's/Home Depot/Amazon ect.

1) Cuttler-Hammer 50amp Double Pole breaker in the open spots in my main panel.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Type-BR-Replacement-Circuit-Breaker-BR250/100125397#.UVxsWlfT5iM

2) 6/3 Romex in the wall feeding my spa panel.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202206572?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=6%2F3&storeId=10051&N=25ecodZ5yc1v&R=202 206572#.UVx0xVfT5iM

3) 50 amp Spa Panel
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100686230?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=spa+panel&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100686 230#.UVxt9FfT5iM

2) 6/3 Romex in the wall feeding an outlet.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202206572?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=6%2F3&storeId=10051&N=25ecodZ5yc1v&R=202 206572#.UVx0xVfT5iM

4) 50 amp dryer/welder outlet.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202066681?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=dryer+outlet&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202 066681#.UVx3xlfT5iN

5) 6/4 SOOW wire

6) Dryer/Welder plug
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/203492649?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=dryer+plug&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=20349 2649#.UVx3wlfT5iM

7) Leviton 2713 Locking Connector
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2713-Connector-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B000FKBZ5O/

8) Leviton 2715 Flanged Inlet Locking Receptacle.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2715-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B003B8T0E0

9) Leviton 2710 Flush Mounting Locking Receptacle X2
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2710-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00002NATX

10) leviton 2711 Locking Plug X2
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2711-L14-30P-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00002NATY



Now my questions or concerns with my setup.

A) This setup is 50amp rated all the way up to the control enclosure receptacle. I did this just in case some moron purchases my home later and decides to hook up something that draws 45 amps to the spa panel outlet and burns down the house because I used 10/3. I do not want it to fail any home inspections or code inspections. Anyone see a problem with the layout up to the outlet other than the cost of 6/3 over 8/3 or 10/3? I would also not mind being able to run my welder off the outlet when the control panel is not plugged in.

B) My system will be 3 vessel, 2 element (5500w ULWD), 3 pump, BrewTroller controlled. I will only be running 1 element at a time. Is there any problem using the 30amp rated Leviton connectors on the ends of the 6/4 SOOW? I already have the 6/4 SOOW considerably cheaper than buying 10/3 or 8/3 wire and would like to use it.

C) Do I need to have a 30 amp breaker somewhere after the dryer wall outlet? I will be using 10mm 65amp 10-6 DIN Rail Terminal Blocks inside the enclosure for each leg of the service. http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/749/=m5wjnb

D) Open to input if you see a problem!



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Old 04-03-2013, 08:26 PM   #2
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As long as your 6/3 Romex is 6/3 + ground, then it looks fine. That said, I think you could save some money and have an easier time with it if you ran your 6/3+ ground directly to your 50a outlet, and had that as your only permanently installed circuit. The welder does not need the GFCI panel.

Then you can make the GFCI panel a "pluggable" device that can plug into the 50a outlet. If your control panel only needs 30a then you can put an additional 30a breaker in the spa panel (see http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/has-anyone-added-30a-breaker-50a-gfi-spa-panel-397746/), and run 10awg to the spa panel then onto the control panel. This is probably the most cost-effective solution.

Or, you could run 6awg to the spa panel and then to the control panel, and have breakers in your control panel like BadNewsBrewery did: "(6ga) from panel to spa panel to control panel. 6ga hits contactor, goes from there to 4 distribution blocks (Hot A, Hot B, Neutral, and Ground). 10ga from the Hot A / B a very short distance to 2 internally mounted DIN 25a breakers and 1 15a breaker. From those, appropriately sized wire to individual components."

P.S. This also offers the advantage that you can take your GFCI with you if you ever need to move.



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Old 04-03-2013, 10:08 PM   #3
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I like that. So the Spa Panel could then relocate and move with the brewery when I sell this house and buy another. To a home inspector or codes inspector all I have done is added a 50amp circuit to the panel with the appropriate wire and outlet. I would need more 6/4 SOOW that I would 6/3+ ground wire in that configuration but I already have a spool of 6/4 SOOW that cost me less per foot than 10/3 romex.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:38 PM   #4
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Revised layout realizing I will need to sort out that 30amp breaker in the spa panel as discussed in the other thread.



and revised links.

1) http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-2-in-Double-Pole-Type-BR-Replacement-Circuit-Breaker-BR250/100125397#.UVxsWlfT5iM
2) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202206572?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=6%2F3&storeId=10051&N=25ecodZ5yc1v&R=202 206572#.UVx0xVfT5iM
3) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202066681?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=dryer+outlet&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202 066681#.UVxzOlfT5iM
4) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/203492649?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=dryer+plug&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=20349 2649#.UVx3wlfT5iM
5) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202316211?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=6%2F3&storeId=10051&N=25ecodZ5yc1v&R=202 316211#.UVx0wlfT5iM
6) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100686230?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=spa+panel&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100686 230#.UVxt9FfT5iM
7) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100114666?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=30+amp+breaker&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=1 00114666#.UVysl1fT5iM
8) http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202564781?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=10%2F4+SOOW&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=2025 64781#.UVytc1fT5iM
9) http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2713-Connector-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B000FKBZ5O
10) http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2715-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B003B8T0E0
11) http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2710-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00002NATX
12) http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2711-L14-30P-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00002NATY

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:49 PM   #5
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I think 5) can be 10/4, since you have a 30a breaker in the circuit.

If you do have plenty of 6/4 SOOW already, you might consider skipping the 30a breaker in the spa panel and going with the second option I mentioned above. That would have 5) and 8) as 6/4, with breakers in the control panel. Then your spa panel remains a 50a GFCI rather than effectively a 30a GFCI.

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Old 04-04-2013, 01:17 AM   #6
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Since I am DIN rail mounting things in the control enclosure than the breakers in there you are talking about would be along the lines of the units discussed in the other thread? http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Circuit_Protection_-z-_Fuses_-z-_Disconnects/UL_1077_Rated_Supplementary_Protectors/Double_Pole_Supplementary_Protectors_(0.5A-63A,_WMZS2_Series)/B_Curve_(6A-63A,_WMZS2Bxx)/WMZS2B30

Just so I am clear a 30 amp breaker down stream (after) the 50 amp GFCI will not effect the function of the GFCI protection on the spa panel correct? It would still trip over 30 amps as overload protection but the spa panel would still trip on even a very small ground fault?

The only reason I would run the 6/4 from the outlet to the spa panel in my second layout is I have the 6/4 and I could than have a fairly long run between my outlet and the spa panel. I plan on putting the outlet near the main panel and the spa panel over near the brew stand and control enclosure about 15 to 20 feet away. I could certainly make that out of 10/4 but I would just have to buy more 10/4.

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Old 04-04-2013, 10:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidTNJasonF View Post
Since I am DIN rail mounting things in the control enclosure than the breakers in there you are talking about would be along the lines of the units discussed in the other thread? http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Circuit_Protection_-z-_Fuses_-z-_Disconnects/UL_1077_Rated_Supplementary_Protectors/Double_Pole_Supplementary_Protectors_(0.5A-63A,_WMZS2_Series)/B_Curve_(6A-63A,_WMZS2Bxx)/WMZS2B30

Just so I am clear a 30 amp breaker down stream (after) the 50 amp GFCI will not effect the function of the GFCI protection on the spa panel correct? It would still trip over 30 amps as overload protection but the spa panel would still trip on even a very small ground fault?

The only reason I would run the 6/4 from the outlet to the spa panel in my second layout is I have the 6/4 and I could than have a fairly long run between my outlet and the spa panel. I plan on putting the outlet near the main panel and the spa panel over near the brew stand and control enclosure about 15 to 20 feet away. I could certainly make that out of 10/4 but I would just have to buy more 10/4.
As long as you are comfortable given the ul489 vs. ul1077 discussion, that breaker should be fine. A downstream breaker or fuse will not effect the function of the GFCI.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:58 PM   #8
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I will read a bit more on that debate when I get a chance. It seems selecting something like this https://www.asi-ez.com/member/~NDB2T-63C32-2L.asp?Dept_ID=1716
would solve that potential issue. 30amp double pole and ul489. It would be double to cost of the previously linked ul1077 breaker but a small additional cost when compared to the hundreds I have already spent on control panel components.

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Old 04-04-2013, 04:44 PM   #9
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I would think that you would be fine with that. Disclaimer: I am not an electrician.

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Old 04-04-2013, 06:39 PM   #10
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Can somebody please link to a summary of the issue of ul489 versus ul1077 breakers in control panels? I was assuming that ul1077 would suffice, but the more I read the less I seem to understand.



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