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Old 02-06-2013, 10:01 PM   #61
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If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.
Hi P-J I've got a really silly question that I need a brighter mind to answer but your PM's are turned off =(

You had sent me an AWESOME diagram a couple of weeks ago and I had a question about something on there.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:05 PM   #62
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I really like your respose: However, I'd also like to talk out some issues that I see with your post.

If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.
P-J, I would be happy discuss it as I am always open to learning. That said, you don't appear to accept PMs.
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Old 07-22-2013, 07:45 PM   #63
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I am wondering by your diagram P-J, do you have the neutral from the receptacle and the GFCI neutral lugged together? Having some challenges comprehending it. Looks like you have a separate neutral crossing from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.

Is that correct?

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Old 07-24-2013, 12:21 PM   #64
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Holy dead thread...

This is how to turn a 3 wire supply into a 4 wire run to your panel. Here's how it goes...

Hot A and Hot B cary through the breaker - pretty simple.

Neutral goes to the terminal block (yellow wire going to block shown on left). The GFCI breaker has a neutral pig-tail, which is that curly white wire. It also goes to the terminal block (shown on left). Lastly, a jumper is run from the Neutral terminal block over to the ground terminal block. Ground and Neutral are normally bonded at the MAIN panel, but if you only have a 3 wire supply and you can't go and put in a new 4 wire outlet run all the way back to the main panel, this is the best way to go.

On the load side - the neutral line ties into the breaker (yellow wire coming out of the breaker), and the ground goes to your ground terminal (Green wire).

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Old 07-26-2013, 02:35 AM   #65
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I currently am dealing with the same issue. I've had two electricians take a look and they both said I need a service upgrade (current 100amp panel is maxed out - not sure if they did a true load calculation as I was at work when they came to give the estimate). Either way the estimates for service upgrade + running new line for 4 prong 30 amp outlet with gfci were both $2,500. This is way more than what I had expected but the fault is on me for not doing the research before I started my build. I would really love to be able to run an 'extension cord' for lack of a better term from my 3-prong dryer outlet to a spa panel in my garage (around 50ft or so).

I'm not so worried about code requirements as I am about safety. Does anyone know if there is actually a higher risk of electrocution or other danger going this route if something were to happen? Safety is top propriety for me - however if this is just a matter of being compliant with code then I will definitely go this route. When I asked both electricians about this they said "As a licensed electrician, I cannot comment about the safety of a configuration that isn't up to code". Their response is completely reasonable and I get where they are coming from.

Either way if anyone has any insight regarding safety implications, if any, that would be great.

:::sorry for the long winded version of a simple basic question:::

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Old 07-26-2013, 03:09 AM   #66
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With a lot of google I upgraded my own service to 200 amps. I even had it inspected and passed. It wasn't too expensive at all. Is your service underground? That would make a huge difference...

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Old 07-26-2013, 04:30 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kian View Post
I currently am dealing with the same issue. I've had two electricians take a look and they both said I need a service upgrade (current 100amp panel is maxed out - not sure if they did a true load calculation as I was at work when they came to give the estimate). Either way the estimates for service upgrade + running new line for 4 prong 30 amp outlet with gfci were both $2,500. This is way more than what I had expected but the fault is on me for not doing the research before I started my build. I would really love to be able to run an 'extension cord' for lack of a better term from my 3-prong dryer outlet to a spa panel in my garage (around 50ft or so).

I'm not so worried about code requirements as I am about safety. Does anyone know if there is actually a higher risk of electrocution or other danger going this route if something were to happen? Safety is top propriety for me - however if this is just a matter of being compliant with code then I will definitely go this route. When I asked both electricians about this they said "As a licensed electrician, I cannot comment about the safety of a configuration that isn't up to code". Their response is completely reasonable and I get where they are coming from.

Either way if anyone has any insight regarding safety implications, if any, that would be great.

:::sorry for the long winded version of a simple basic question:::
Take a look at post 2 in this thread, as I tried to lay out the safety issues there. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-w...-again-372667/
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:59 PM   #68
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Jeffmeh - Thanks - this is exactly what I was looking for. Never thought about running a dedicated ground from the main panel to the spa, that sounds like the most cost effective way/safe way to go - great suggestion.

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Old 07-27-2013, 09:32 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsBrewery View Post
Holy dead thread...

This is how to turn a 3 wire supply into a 4 wire run to your panel. Here's how it goes...

Hot A and Hot B cary through the breaker - pretty simple.

Neutral goes to the terminal block (yellow wire going to block shown on left). The GFCI breaker has a neutral pig-tail, which is that curly white wire. It also goes to the terminal block (shown on left). Lastly, a jumper is run from the Neutral terminal block over to the ground terminal block. Ground and Neutral are normally bonded at the MAIN panel, but if you only have a 3 wire supply and you can't go and put in a new 4 wire outlet run all the way back to the main panel, this is the best way to go.

On the load side - the neutral line ties into the breaker (yellow wire coming out of the breaker), and the ground goes to your ground terminal (Green wire).
Installing a spa panel doesn't turn a 3-wire supply into a 4-wire equipment grounding supply. Sure, you have four wires coming out but it's only an illusion of the purpose of a 4-wire supply which is to have a fully dedicated equipment/safety grounding conductor.

One can just as well keep only the three wires and pretend there is an equipment grounding conductor as the benefit of the fourth wire in that type of setup is all in the imagination.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:39 PM   #70
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At the end of the day, the ground and neutral are bonded at the main panel, right? So to me it seems logical that running a dedicated ground from the main panel is the best option. Doing the 3-to-4 conversion at the Spa Panel is the second best option. Just pretending you have a ground and basically bonding your ground and neutral at the control panel is the third and worst option.

It seems that the location of where your ground and neutral are bonded is the defining factor. The closer to the main panel (and further from you, the user, at the brewery panel) the better. If this is the case, then I would disagree with whoaru99 that there is no benefit in going the 3-to-4 route over just going the make-believe route. You're getting the ground/neutral bond further from you and closer to the main panel, where it should be, and hopefully reducing the resistance in the to-ground path such that stray voltage runs to ground and not to you.

Don't get me wrong - still not the best way to do it. And for the sake of "I know it's not code but is it safe" - codes are written for safety, and are modified when those who write the codes determine that there's a gap in safety. So you really can't split the two without coming up with your own definition of what "safe" is. Some people walk tight-ropes across the grand canyon without a harness or rope - everyone has their own idea of safety, but the national code seems to be the best bet for what an acceptable definition of "safe" is.

-Kevin

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5gal Winter Spice Ale

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