So who's worked in their main electrical panel?

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It's probably good enough to say don't touch live stuff and if you have to, don't touch other stuff at different potential like ground. If you don't understand why, call an electrical because you might die.

I upgraded my panel and service from 100a to 200 amp and spliced the SEC into the live aerial drop cable. How's that for scary? I wouldn't recommend that, but no, I'm not scared to pop a new breaker into the panel with the main still on. One of my personal mantras when I'm working around the panel is to keep one hand in my pocket. Oh, and check for nails and tacks in the sole of your shoes. Nothing like thinking you're isolated when a tiny lightning rod is a millimeter from your toe.
 
Indeed, its gone down a few different rabbit holes. But what the hey, its' an interesting read. :cross: Of course, I've been waiting for the union vs. non-union comments to turn into a tap room brawl.

Just last week my buddy, a local 479 best boy electrician was shocked by an energized breaker box in a middle school we were shooting in. We popped the door and noticed that a wire breaking off the red bus bar was pinched and the exposed copper was sending 110 through the entire breaker box. We read 28 amps from the box to the ground. More than enough to kill ya. We asked the house electrician who was the last person to service the box. He said it was a small non union contractor. If one of my union brothers did a hack job like that, we would have expelled him in a heartbeat.
 
Just last week my buddy, a local 479 best boy electrician was shocked by an energized breaker box in a middle school we were shooting in. We popped the door and noticed that a wire breaking off the red bus bar was pinched and the exposed copper was sending 110 through the entire breaker box. We read 28 amps from the box to the ground. More than enough to kill ya. We asked the house electrician who was the last person to service the box. He said it was a small non union contractor. If one of my union brothers did a hack job like that, we would have expelled him in a heartbeat.
Why didn't the breaker trip? Was the box not grounded?
 
Why would touching loaded circuit hurt you worse?

Typically the voltage on a loaded circuit will be slightly less, although not significantly so if the circuit is sized properly.

A loaded circuit is fighting the resistance of the circuit, which depending on the load and wire gauge could be substantial. Along comes someone to provide another path to ground and suddenly you've give the electricity another (perhaps easier) way to get back to Mother Earth. When resistiance is in parallel it will always follow BOTH sides, not just the path of least resistance.


The worst shock I ever received rang out at 40 VAC when we found it. A frayed cord on a refrigerated table (240v/30a) was energizing the chassis. Turns out the restaurant owner bought his fancy new table to replace one that broke, but he cut off the 4 prong plug end it came with and replaced it with the old table's 3 prong, leaving the ground disconnected and therefore the chassis ungrounded.

It could have been like this for a long time because we only noticed it when we replaced the fryer baskets with ones that had an all-metal handle, and when your hand was on the table (sopping wet, the table was full of fish) then dropped the basket you completed the circuit. First guy to get shocked almost pissed himself. We couldn't figure out what was happening until I decided to go through the motions of what he was doing......when it happened...... OWWWWWWWWWWCH!! That hurt! No plasma, no big bang. All it showed on the meter was 40 volts. That's low-voltage right? Don't need a license for 40 volts!

Everybody talks about Amps and Volts, but there's another letter to that triangle putting everything in perspective.
 
Edited to try a different approach -

A loaded circuit is fighting the resistance of the circuit, which depending on the load and wire gauge could be substantial. Along comes someone to provide another path to ground and suddenly you've give the electricity another (perhaps easier) way to get back to Mother Earth. When resistiance is in parallel it will always follow BOTH sides, not just the path of least resistance.


The worst shock I ever received rang out at 40 VAC when we found it. A frayed cord on a refrigerated table (240v/30a) was energizing the chassis. Turns out the restaurant owner bought his fancy new table to replace one that broke, but he cut off the 4 prong plug end it came with and replaced it with the old table's 3 prong, leaving the ground disconnected and therefore the chassis ungrounded.

It could have been like this for a long time because we only noticed it when we replaced the fryer baskets with ones that had an all-metal handle, and when your hand was on the table (sopping wet, the table was full of fish) then dropped the basket you completed the circuit

I'm not clear whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with the point that a loaded circuit won't hurt you any worse.

No disagreement that you got a shock due to some sort of voltage leakage to chassis that almost certainly got worse/increased when the fryer was turned on than when it was turned off. However, are you saying the shock resulting from 40V leakage was worse than if, with the same sopping wet hands, same surface area of contact, etc., you had grabbed hold of a bare 240V hot wire in the power circuit supplying the fryer?

I think not.

Ohms Law -

Body resistance: ~1,000 ohms, wet hand to wet hand

40V to ground across 1,000 ohms = 40mA

240V to ground across 1,000 ohms = 240mA.

Again, not saying you didn't get perhaps the worst shock you've had, but had you touched an unloaded but energized 240V wire under the same conditions it would have been much worse.
 
It wasn't 40 volts, it was one side of the hot leg frayed against the outside of the fridge. No doubt I was getting 120v, but there was too much resistance to jump from me to the floor, or the rubbber-coated handles of the old fryolator baskets. But the fryolator was grounded through the gas pipe, and that was enough to almost knock me out. Protective gear is built on the phenomenon on resistance, and people who work around electricity need to know how this stuff works because there's more than enough juice in a lamp cord to kill you. You don't have to go into the electrical panel to kill yourself.

I'm of the opinion that a circuit under load is more dangerous than one that is not.
 
I thought you said you measured 40V?

Anyway, with regard to getting a shock still don't see how a loaded circuit is going to cause any worse shock than touching the same circuit supply, energized but unloaded, under the same conditions. That seems to defy Ohm's Law.
 
I thought you said you measured 40V?

Anyway, with regard to getting a shock still don't see how a loaded circuit is going to cause any worse shock than touching the same circuit supply, energized but unloaded, under the same conditions. That seems to defy Ohm's Law.

It does not defy ohms law. Amps are simply the measurement to how hard the voltage is working. The harder it works the more it will hurt you.
 
Yes, it does.

The current that flows through you depends on the voltage you touch and your resistance to ground. It doesn't depend on the load of the circuit, per se.
 
Yes, it does.

The current that flows through you depends on the voltage you touch and your resistance to ground. It doesn't depend on the load of the circuit, per se.

So then by your logic a 25,000v tazer will hurt you worse than 120v wall socket with a load of 20 amps? You're wrong. Amperage is Dependant on voltage and resistance yes, but it is the amperage that delivers a lethal blow to your body. Its why 10,000 volt static shock, or tazer hit won't kill you. It just stuns you. Low voltage with higher amperage is dangerous because your heart responds less to a defibulator.
 
Some people have theorized that the human body cycles at an average of 70 Hz at rest. That is our bodies resonant frequency. AC current cycles at 60 HZ. Electrolytes are carried through "salty water" as you put it. We aren't the greatest conductors but our resistance changes drastically when wet. Look it up for yourself. The heart beats on average 60-80 BPM. Point being, is that our body works in cycles of micro electromagnetic activity. Its the same principle why lightning will hit a running generator in a thunderstorm.

Wtf do you mean our body cycles at 70 hz? By that I meann what cycles? Also, 60 hz is 60 cycles per second. What does that have to do with a 60 bpm heartbeat?
 
You're mixing apples and oranges there.

The current availability from a taser is low as you say and as I agree, but that isn't an applicable situation because it's intentionally current limited.

The current available on a household or industrial AC mains circuit is for all intents and purposes unlimited with regard to the level necessary to kill you, the resistance of your body notwithstanding. It doesn't matter if the circuit has anything attached to it or if it has a 15A load on it or a 150A load on it. The shock will be no worse with the load on the circuit.

Now, all that said, it's occurring to me that when you use the word "load" you may not be meaning load in the sense of draw on the circuit - instead perhaps meaning simply there is a big breaker feeding the circuit?
 
Wtf do you mean our body cycles at 70 hz? By that I meann what cycles? Also, 60 hz is 60 cycles per second. What does that have to do with a 60 bpm heartbeat?

Believe it or not, electronic pulses travel through pur body naturally at that resonant frequency.
 
You're mixing apples and oranges there.

The current availability from a taser is low as you say and as I agree, but that isn't an applicable situation because it's intentionally current limited.

The current available on a household or industrial AC mains circuit is for all intents and purposes unlimited with regard to the level necessary to kill you, the resistance of your body notwithstanding. It doesn't matter if the circuit has anything attached to it or if it has a 15A load on it or a 150A load on it. The shock will be no worse with the load on the circuit.

Now, all that said, it's occurring to me that when you use the word "load" you may not be meaning load in the sense of draw on the circuit - instead perhaps meaning simply there is a big breaker feeding the circuit?

You are 100% wrong. What are your credentials? Are you an electrician by trade?
 
http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/safety/electrical/TheFatalCurrent.html

It is the intensity of current that kills. Read for yourself.

Yes, it's current through the body that kills. That is not the same as current through a circuit.

Everything that whoaru99 said is correct.

The reason tasers and shocks aren't lethal is because either the source impedance is high (tasers) and limit the amount of current, or the total energy is low enough to dissipate before anything really happens (getting shocked by a doorknob)

It doesn't matter if you touch a hot lead how many amps are flowing through the conductor....you aren't going to trip the breaker, and the voltage isn't going to droop because the source impedance is so low.

The only time a loaded circuit makes a difference is when you are talking about the neutral or return path. If it is poorly connected or loose, a "high load" allows for a low impedance path to the power source and you get fried. If the load is disconnected, or say powering a LED (at a couple milliamps) you just get a tingly feeling even if it reads 220v.

A lot of the time when you have a short to case, you won't see the full voltage because depending on how well the return or case ground is connected, or where the short to power develops, you get a resistor divider and some intermediate voltage...but it's almost always a low enough resistance to power to still give a quite thorough shock.

On the other extreme, one of our suppliers builds current shunts for measure the current in circuits (essential a calibrated low resistance)

To make them, the connect the shunt to a 1000amp supply and use a bench top manual mill to remove material while the circuit is live until the proper resistance is met. Even though there is 1000amps flowing through the circuit, it's safe to touch the bare metal because at most the power supply will only deliver 4v.


In order to be dangerous, the voltage must be high enough to overcome the resistance of a human to a different voltage potential. It also must come from a source with a low enough impedance to not restrict the flow of current.

Unfortunately for the human body...those two requirements are not difficult to meet.
 
Damn, I'm pretty sure if I took a pic of my panel half the guys here would flip **** with how I've wired it. And I'm always in it hot. One of these days I'll tie over to a secondary 100 amp from my 200, just gotta decide when if doubled up too many wires into my breakers.
 
Yes, it's current through the body that kills. That is not the same as current through a circuit.

Everything that whoaru99 said is correct.

The reason tasers and shocks aren't lethal is because either the source impedance is high (tasers) and limit the amount of current, or the total energy is low enough to dissipate before anything really happens (getting shocked by a doorknob)

It doesn't matter if you touch a hot lead how many amps are flowing through the conductor....you aren't going to trip the breaker, and the voltage isn't going to droop because the source impedance is so low.

The only time a loaded circuit makes a difference is when you are talking about the neutral or return path. If it is poorly connected or loose, a "high load" allows for a low impedance path to the power source and you get fried. If the load is disconnected, or say powering a LED (at a couple milliamps) you just get a tingly feeling even if it reads 220v.

A lot of the time when you have a short to case, you won't see the full voltage because depending on how well the return or case ground is connected, or where the short to power develops, you get a resistor divider and some intermediate voltage...but it's almost always a low enough resistance to power to still give a quite thorough shock.

On the other extreme, one of our suppliers builds current shunts for measure the current in circuits (essential a calibrated low resistance)

To make them, the connect the shunt to a 1000amp supply and use a bench top manual mill to remove material while the circuit is live until the proper resistance is met. Even though there is 1000amps flowing through the circuit, it's safe to touch the bare metal because at most the power supply will only deliver 4v.


In order to be dangerous, the voltage must be high enough to overcome the resistance of a human to a different voltage potential. It also must come from a source with a low enough impedance to not restrict the flow of current.

Unfortunately for the human body...those two requirements are not difficult to meet.

And working around 240v meets that requirement. My load on or off debate refers to working with the bus bar. You can touch a hot wire all day, touch two bus bars you get hurt. I'm not debating that. What I am debating is, if you touch a hot leg, and then touch say another hot leg or neutral. You will get hurt worse if there is amperage on the run vs no amperage.
 
And working around 240v meets that requirement. My load on or off debate refers to working with the bus bar. You can touch a hot wire all day, touch two bus bars you get hurt. I'm not debating that. What I am debating is, if you touch a hot leg, and then touch say another hot leg or neutral. You will get hurt worse if there is amperage on the run vs no amperage.

Danny, please don't take this as a personal attack, I promise it's not, but I don't think you understand ohms law.

Everyone here agrees with your statement that current kills.

But, the current is a direct result of the voltage and your body's resistance. Current is not controlled by the circuit in any way except when it might be limited by a breaker.
 
And working around 240v meets that requirement. My load on or off debate refers to working with the bus bar. You can touch a hot wire all day, touch two bus bars you get hurt. I'm not debating that. What I am debating is, if you touch a hot leg, and then touch say another hot leg or neutral. You will get hurt worse if there is amperage on the run vs no amperage.

except, no, you don't. If the neutral is well bonded (and it should be if it's working) then it doesn't matter what the current through it is. it matters what the voltage potential between the two points is. In a household panel there are three potentials. ground, +120v, -120v (+/- are simplified for this discussion)

Current through those buses will shift the voltage slightly (loss in the conductors) but won't affect the current through the body.

By your logic, a 10w light bulb would shine brighter (more current through it) if I plug in a 300w light bulb next to it. (there's more current so it's more intense) that's simply not how electricity works.

Again, the only way a load will affect how you get shocked is if you are touching a ground or neutral with a lot of current through it. the current through the ground will tend to raise the potential (voltage) of the circuit segment relative to ground, allowing you to get shocked. The higher the resistance of the neutral or ground, the less current required to elevate the voltage to dangerous levels.
 
Danny, please don't take this as a personal attack, I promise it's not, but I don't think you understand ohms law.

Everyone here agrees with your statement that current kills.

But, the current is a direct result of the voltage and your body's resistance. Current is not controlled by the circuit in any way except when it might be limited by a breaker.

exactly, it's absolutely true that it's current that kills - current through the body.

That's different than the current in a circuit.
 
exactly, it's absolutely true that it's current that kills - current through the body.

That's different than the current in a circuit.

No it is not, because if there is no current through the circuit, there is no current through the body. If you become one with the circuit, guess what, those ampers are now running through your body. The intensity of the current is now significantly higher, which rocks your world!

If you tie into an unloaded 120v circuit and you somehow complete the circuit but there is no draw or pull on the circuit because nothing is on it, it'll hurt but your chances of being killed are less than say if your dishwasher and fridge were pulling something. You can dispute this all you want, I tie in all the time with stuff pulling all day, but if I have the opportunity to have less appliances, lights, etc pulling on the circuit I'll make sure they are shut off. You have to understand that in my world, the distribution boxes are outside. In movies we pull from a 1200A generator or 1.5 megawatt generator and our bus bars are outside in the elements on the ground. We cover them in rubber matts and place them on wooden boxes but they get rained on. They are exposed to the elements, your chances of being fried are exponentially higher. When it is raining and we are shooting a movie, guess what, all the electricians on set are wet. Guess what, our resistance makes us prime targets for being great conductors, union linesmen working on powerlines also work in the rain. You may not even know if you are upstream or down stream from the current either.

You have to understand that when I am at work, we have several 18,000w lights on the circuit and much more. It may even be raining. I'm gonna make sure those are off when I tie in because there may be 400+amps on the line when my hands are hooking up camlocks in the rain. If they must stay on, I'll make sure the circuit at my point of the rig is terminated at my point of the rig by breakering down before I tie into my section up stream of the source. If not and I must tie in live, I'm very careful to have my hand only on the one connection, I don't have a knee on the ground, and my other hand is not touching anything else that could ground me. I also make sure that nothing upstream from me is turned on. If my feet are wet I stand on a wooden box. My point being, if you were to make a mistake, which most DIY people who have no experience in the electrical world will ultimately do. They will totally add a breaker or wire with a hand planted on the edge of the box, or the mini fridge next to it, or a hand in a bucket of water, or a knee on the ground. Hell, on a home brew forum they'll probably be three or four deep before they even attempt it.

If some of these guys who have never worked as an electrician but are ****ing around with their breaker boxes in their homes to make cheap beer, shouldn't they take the extra precautions and not get killed? If you can tell me seriously that amperage vs no amperage on a circuit makes no difference, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I understand fully that the principle that "current kills" is essentially correct. It is electric current that burns tissue, freezes muscles, and fibrillates hearts. However, electric current doesn't just occur on its own: there must be voltage available to motivate electrons to flow through a victim. A person's body also presents resistance to current, which must be taken into account. Amperage cannot exist without voltage, and electric shock cannot exist without resistance met.

Taking Ohm's Law for voltage, current, and resistance, and expressing it in terms of current for a given voltage and resistance, we have this equation:

I=E/R

That is elementary. You can't have current without the other. But if you have an accident, which happens, amperage is a factor that can be easily avoided by simply shutting a breaker off. Remove it from the equation. It's one less factor that could result in your premature death. Which is one less thing to worry about regarding SAFETY. SAFETY always trumps everything in the union world of being an electrician. Screw that cowboy ****! I'd much rather be hit with 220v with no amps than 220v with 100amps. Just saying as, I've actually been hit by a 220 run before with a significant amount of amperage. Enough to blow me back 10 feet, make my life flash before my eyes, burn a hole through my left hand, and left foot, and almost made me piss my pants. The final result was 3 days in the hospital and a skin graft. What sucks even more, it was out of my hands. The 4/ot gauge cable had frayed and bad shielding which resulted in my my very near premature death. I've also been hit with a 220v neon light(it was an open ballast that acquired some moisture) which shook me up but I continued work. It didn't burn me and I didn't almost pee my pants, it didn't throw me 10 feet against a wall knocking me unconscious.

You can take chances all you want, but you don't know who hooked up your breaker box. You don't know if there is a frayed wire, a pipe leaking somewhere in the house on the circuit, a moist piece of rotten wood that is grounding out a hot frayed wire, or any other messed up variable that is out of your control. There are so many variables to the situation that my life isn't worth not tripping a breaker off before I tie in. If you feel like trusting an equation that is your business. As a journeyman Electrician in the film business, I'll advise otherwise.

If they trust me to hang 18,000w lights over Daniel Day Lewis's head, I'd trust that I know what I'm talking about. Yes that is right, I worked on Spielberg's Lincoln last year, it is nominated for 12 academy awards. I hate no name drop but you've left me with no choice. I doubt that they'd trust me to do my job if I did not know what I was talking about.

Here is my online resume if you don't believe me.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3016550/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

In the meantime people, be safe, think smart, don't make yourself one with power. If you are scared, hire a professional. I've wasted enough time on this thread, trying to prevent people from getting unnecessarily hurt. If you want to be a cowboy and take a risk, go ahead. But there is more than enough power in your main breakerbox in your home to kill you. If your life isn't that important to you and you have no idea what you are doing, trust the guys advice above me who have yet to say what their credentials are, go ahead! **** the ampers on you circuit, it'll make no difference according to these knuckle heads.

I for one would much rather be shocked at 220v with no load than 220v with significant ampers. I've been hit with both. One resulted in a slight sensation and the other blew me back 10 feet. You be the judge, it's your life.
 
Well, this thread has taught me 2 valuable things, one of which I already knew. 1. I know nothing about electricity(but now I am more aware of that) and 2. I will not be electric brewing anytime soon. This is a fascinating thread though. I need to hang out in this part of the forum more.
 
If you tie into an unloaded 120v circuit and you somehow complete the circuit but there is no draw or pull on the circuit because nothing is on it, it'll hurt but your chances of being killed are less than say if your dishwasher and fridge were pulling something. You can dispute this all you want, I tie in all the time with stuff pulling all day, but if I have the opportunity to have less appliances, lights, etc pulling on the circuit I'll make sure they are shut off. You have to understand that in my world, the distribution boxes are outside. In movies we pull from a 1200A generator or 1.5 megawatt generator and our bus bars are outside in the elements on the ground.

As you posted, ohms law.... If you have a live 120V circuit for example, with nothing plugged in to it, current you will recieve (lets say your resistance is 1000 ohms) I=V/R = 120/1000 = 120mA. Now lets assume this circuit is drawing 10amps, I=120/1000 = 120mA.... No difference....

I think what your confusing is when you make/break a connection that is live, if the load is an inductive one (motors/transformers, etc) the blowback voltage/arc you will get can be quite dramatic and dangerous. This is for making/breaking circuits, your body making contact with a live loaded or unloaded circuit will make no difference. Have you ever seen the power company open up on of their substation disconnect switches, and the giant arc that typically occurs (due to the load)? If there was no load on the circuit you wouldn't likely get this dramatic arc, but touch one of those leads and you will get the same shock, because YOU are the load.

I also have seen people blown back when connecting/disconnecting 500-1000A power connections if the load is connected, due to the amount of surge that can happen when this is done. It is NOT for the reasons your stating, your arguing against one of the most fundamental concepts in electrical engineering.

You keep saying you know this, and we're all wrong but you haven't offered any explanation thats not based on your anecdotal experiences, the amount of shock you received from one day to the next is more likely to do with your resistance at the time and how you touched it then the load of the circuit.
 
No it is not, because if there is no current through the circuit, there is no current through the body. If you become one with the circuit, guess what, those ampers are now running through your body. The intensity of the current is now significantly higher, which rocks your world!

If you tie into an unloaded 120v circuit and you somehow complete the circuit but there is no draw or pull on the circuit because nothing is on it, it'll hurt but your chances of being killed are less than say if your dishwasher and fridge were pulling something. You can dispute this all you want, I tie in all the time with stuff pulling all day, but if I have the opportunity to have less appliances, lights, etc pulling on the circuit I'll make sure they are shut off. You have to understand that in my world, the distribution boxes are outside. In movies we pull from a 1200A generator or 1.5 megawatt generator and our bus bars are outside in the elements on the ground. We cover them in rubber matts and place them on wooden boxes but they get rained on. They are exposed to the elements, your chances of being fried are exponentially higher. When it is raining and we are shooting a movie, guess what, all the electricians on set are wet. Guess what, our resistance makes us prime targets for being great conductors, union linesmen working on powerlines also work in the rain. You may not even know if you are upstream or down stream from the current either.

You have to understand that when I am at work, we have several 18,000w lights on the circuit and much more. It may even be raining. I'm gonna make sure those are off when I tie in because there may be 400+amps on the line when my hands are hooking up camlocks in the rain. If they must stay on, I'll make sure the circuit at my point of the rig is terminated at my point of the rig by breakering down before I tie into my section up stream of the source. If not and I must tie in live, I'm very careful to have my hand only on the one connection, I don't have a knee on the ground, and my other hand is not touching anything else that could ground me. I also make sure that nothing upstream from me is turned on. If my feet are wet I stand on a wooden box. My point being, if you were to make a mistake, which most DIY people who have no experience in the electrical world will ultimately do. They will totally add a breaker or wire with a hand planted on the edge of the box, or the mini fridge next to it, or a hand in a bucket of water, or a knee on the ground. Hell, on a home brew forum they'll probably be three or four deep before they even attempt it.

If some of these guys who have never worked as an electrician but are ****ing around with their breaker boxes in their homes to make cheap beer, shouldn't they take the extra precautions and not get killed? If you can tell me seriously that amperage vs no amperage on a circuit makes no difference, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I understand fully that the principle that "current kills" is essentially correct. It is electric current that burns tissue, freezes muscles, and fibrillates hearts. However, electric current doesn't just occur on its own: there must be voltage available to motivate electrons to flow through a victim. A person's body also presents resistance to current, which must be taken into account. Amperage cannot exist without voltage, and electric shock cannot exist without resistance met.

Taking Ohm's Law for voltage, current, and resistance, and expressing it in terms of current for a given voltage and resistance, we have this equation:

I=E/R

That is elementary. You can't have current without the other. But if you have an accident, which happens, amperage is a factor that can be easily avoided by simply shutting a breaker off. Remove it from the equation. It's one less factor that could result in your premature death. Which is one less thing to worry about regarding SAFETY. SAFETY always trumps everything in the union world of being an electrician. Screw that cowboy ****! I'd much rather be hit with 220v with no amps than 220v with 100amps. Just saying as, I've actually been hit by a 220 run before with a significant amount of amperage. Enough to blow me back 10 feet, make my life flash before my eyes, burn a hole through my left hand, and left foot, and almost made me piss my pants. The final result was 3 days in the hospital and a skin graft. What sucks even more, it was out of my hands. The 4/ot gauge cable had frayed and bad shielding which resulted in my my very near premature death. I've also been hit with a 220v neon light(it was an open ballast that acquired some moisture) which shook me up but I continued work. It didn't burn me and I didn't almost pee my pants, it didn't throw me 10 feet against a wall knocking me unconscious.

You can take chances all you want, but you don't know who hooked up your breaker box. You don't know if there is a frayed wire, a pipe leaking somewhere in the house on the circuit, a moist piece of rotten wood that is grounding out a hot frayed wire, or any other messed up variable that is out of your control. There are so many variables to the situation that my life isn't worth not tripping a breaker off before I tie in. If you feel like trusting an equation that is your business. As a journeyman Electrician in the film business, I'll advise otherwise.

If they trust me to hang 18,000w lights over Daniel Day Lewis's head, I'd trust that I know what I'm talking about. Yes that is right, I worked on Spielberg's Lincoln last year, it is nominated for 12 academy awards. I hate no name drop but you've left me with no choice. I doubt that they'd trust me to do my job if I did not know what I was talking about.

Here is my online resume if you don't believe me.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3016550/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

In the meantime people, be safe, think smart, don't make yourself one with power. If you are scared, hire a professional. I've wasted enough time on this thread, trying to prevent people from getting unnecessarily hurt. If you want to be a cowboy and take a risk, go ahead. But there is more than enough power in your main breakerbox in your home to kill you. If your life isn't that important to you and you have no idea what you are doing, trust the guys advice above me who have yet to say what their credentials are, go ahead! **** the ampers on you circuit, it'll make no difference according to these knuckle heads.

I for one would much rather be shocked at 220v with no load than 220v with significant ampers. I've been hit with both. One resulted in a slight sensation and the other blew me back 10 feet. You be the judge, it's your life.

With all due respect, appeals to credentialism do not a convincing argument make.
 
Not sure it will matter but let's try this...

As can be seen, there is no practical difference in the shock to the person regardless if they are the only load, in series with a large load, or in parallel with a large load. The numbers are rounded for simplicity.

Did not include low draw (high resistance/impedance) loads to illustrate that effect because the (false) assertion is that the larger the load the worse the shock, and we can see that's simply not the case.

S1.png


S2.jpg


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No it is not, because if there is no current through the circuit, there is no current through the body. If you become one with the circuit, guess what, those ampers are now running through your body. The intensity of the current is now significantly higher, which rocks your world!

If you tie into an unloaded 120v circuit and you somehow complete the circuit but there is no draw or pull on the circuit because nothing is on it, it'll hurt but your chances of being killed are less than say if your dishwasher and fridge were pulling something. You can dispute this all you want, I tie in all the time with stuff pulling all day, but if I have the opportunity to have less appliances, lights, etc pulling on the circuit I'll make sure they are shut off. You have to understand that in my world, the distribution boxes are outside. In movies we pull from a 1200A generator or 1.5 megawatt generator and our bus bars are outside in the elements on the ground. We cover them in rubber matts and place them on wooden boxes but they get rained on. They are exposed to the elements, your chances of being fried are exponentially higher. When it is raining and we are shooting a movie, guess what, all the electricians on set are wet. Guess what, our resistance makes us prime targets for being great conductors, union linesmen working on powerlines also work in the rain. You may not even know if you are upstream or down stream from the current either.

You have to understand that when I am at work, we have several 18,000w lights on the circuit and much more. It may even be raining. I'm gonna make sure those are off when I tie in because there may be 400+amps on the line when my hands are hooking up camlocks in the rain. If they must stay on, I'll make sure the circuit at my point of the rig is terminated at my point of the rig by breakering down before I tie into my section up stream of the source. If not and I must tie in live, I'm very careful to have my hand only on the one connection, I don't have a knee on the ground, and my other hand is not touching anything else that could ground me. I also make sure that nothing upstream from me is turned on. If my feet are wet I stand on a wooden box. My point being, if you were to make a mistake, which most DIY people who have no experience in the electrical world will ultimately do. They will totally add a breaker or wire with a hand planted on the edge of the box, or the mini fridge next to it, or a hand in a bucket of water, or a knee on the ground. Hell, on a home brew forum they'll probably be three or four deep before they even attempt it.

If some of these guys who have never worked as an electrician but are ****ing around with their breaker boxes in their homes to make cheap beer, shouldn't they take the extra precautions and not get killed? If you can tell me seriously that amperage vs no amperage on a circuit makes no difference, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I understand fully that the principle that "current kills" is essentially correct. It is electric current that burns tissue, freezes muscles, and fibrillates hearts. However, electric current doesn't just occur on its own: there must be voltage available to motivate electrons to flow through a victim. A person's body also presents resistance to current, which must be taken into account. Amperage cannot exist without voltage, and electric shock cannot exist without resistance met.

Taking Ohm's Law for voltage, current, and resistance, and expressing it in terms of current for a given voltage and resistance, we have this equation:

I=E/R

That is elementary. You can't have current without the other. But if you have an accident, which happens, amperage is a factor that can be easily avoided by simply shutting a breaker off. Remove it from the equation. It's one less factor that could result in your premature death. Which is one less thing to worry about regarding SAFETY. SAFETY always trumps everything in the union world of being an electrician. Screw that cowboy ****! I'd much rather be hit with 220v with no amps than 220v with 100amps. Just saying as, I've actually been hit by a 220 run before with a significant amount of amperage. Enough to blow me back 10 feet, make my life flash before my eyes, burn a hole through my left hand, and left foot, and almost made me piss my pants. The final result was 3 days in the hospital and a skin graft. What sucks even more, it was out of my hands. The 4/ot gauge cable had frayed and bad shielding which resulted in my my very near premature death. I've also been hit with a 220v neon light(it was an open ballast that acquired some moisture) which shook me up but I continued work. It didn't burn me and I didn't almost pee my pants, it didn't throw me 10 feet against a wall knocking me unconscious.

You can take chances all you want, but you don't know who hooked up your breaker box. You don't know if there is a frayed wire, a pipe leaking somewhere in the house on the circuit, a moist piece of rotten wood that is grounding out a hot frayed wire, or any other messed up variable that is out of your control. There are so many variables to the situation that my life isn't worth not tripping a breaker off before I tie in. If you feel like trusting an equation that is your business. As a journeyman Electrician in the film business, I'll advise otherwise.

If they trust me to hang 18,000w lights over Daniel Day Lewis's head, I'd trust that I know what I'm talking about. Yes that is right, I worked on Spielberg's Lincoln last year, it is nominated for 12 academy awards. I hate no name drop but you've left me with no choice. I doubt that they'd trust me to do my job if I did not know what I was talking about.

Here is my online resume if you don't believe me.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3016550/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

In the meantime people, be safe, think smart, don't make yourself one with power. If you are scared, hire a professional. I've wasted enough time on this thread, trying to prevent people from getting unnecessarily hurt. If you want to be a cowboy and take a risk, go ahead. But there is more than enough power in your main breakerbox in your home to kill you. If your life isn't that important to you and you have no idea what you are doing, trust the guys advice above me who have yet to say what their credentials are, go ahead! **** the ampers on you circuit, it'll make no difference according to these knuckle heads.

I for one would much rather be shocked at 220v with no load than 220v with significant ampers. I've been hit with both. One resulted in a slight sensation and the other blew me back 10 feet. You be the judge, it's your life.

No offense at all, but you really need to research "series and parallel circuits". I do believe you have done electrical work but from your responses and some of your terminology I would use the title "electrician" loosely, maybe lighting technician would be more applicable. Again, no offense, seriously.

If you think for a minute how the bus work in a PDC of any type is configured, residential panels included, chances are if you get shocked you will be shocked by a phase that has some load on it regardless of it being a branch circuit or not. Think laterals.

The only way a load on a circuit would affect you if you somehow got into the mix would be if the path was so bad that you actually became a better conductor than the actual wiring, or if you removed a wire that was part of the circuit and got in series with it while the circuit was still energized.

I really have to ask, I've been in the electrical trade for almost 30 years myself, and a licensed journeyman wireman for 25 of those years, I've worked large industrial projects in sawmills, papermills, steelmills, rod mills and offshore drilling and production platforms. I have NEVER seen a temporary power distribution system consist of open/exposed bus work supported on wooden boxes on the ground out in the elements! Is there even a locked fence around these "structures"? I understand temporary and the ability to quickly hook/unhook and alter circuits but my god, OSHA and electrical inspectors must have a field day on a movie set with these kinds of installations. I'm sure there are exceptions to everything, that just sounds like one of the most unsafe installations imaginable.

I do agree wholeheartedly with you that nobody should monkey around with electrical work that doesnt know what they are doing, the cost of an electrician is much cheaper than rebuilding your house or paying for a funeral.

Again, "series and parallel circuits".
 
Danny, I think you're making an argument that electrons can have momentum. In other words, if current is already flowing, it's going to hit you harder as if it were a moving truck.Can you quote some kind of terminology/phenomena that we can look up in an EE level text book? Voltage is the potential, current is a result. Current doesn't "do" anything.
 
I'm not supporting anything else that has been said, but electrons do have momentum. They have mass and they move. The momentum of an individual electron travelling near the speed of light is miniscule (~ 10^-29 kg m/s, I believe) and even if you were bombarded with 1000 amps for a second that is only about ~10^21 electrons which would possess a total momentum of ~10^-9 kg m/s. Not much at all.
 
Taco are you saying you think you could handle 1000 amps for a brief instant?

I no longer work in the field however I was an electrician at a steel mill for a long time. We worked on everything from 5VDC electronics up to 32KV substations. Our main feeder was significantly higher potential than that but I won't speak with experience as we had other people who worked out there. Voltage doesn't matter. Momentum doesn't matter. Current is a mathematical function of voltage and resistance. Electrons may have mass and momentum but from the practical standpoint of what you are sticking your paws into, it just doesn't matter.

As to loaded circuits, Danny are you talking about causing arc flashes? In that case a heavily loaded circuit will have a much larger arc flash if you disconnect it from the source than a lightly or unloaded circuit. Maybe that is what you mean? I've been shocked with 480 two different times. Both times felt different but it was more a function of how I made contact and my own physiological resistance due to fatigue and electrolyte status. Remember the flash won't electrocute but it can easily burn you to death... We used to say electricity is like skydiving. Not dangerous but terribly unforgiving of mistakes.
 
Like I said, I wasn't making a comment on anything other than the question "do electrons have momentum?"
 
charlestonsailing, Taco is just stating the fact electrons have momentum. It is basic physics, I learned that in 7th grade, by the time I took my electrical engineering class it was a mute point and didn't matter due to be so minuscule compared to the other forces affecting electrical circuits.
 
If I had to choose between a 15 amp circuit with 0 amps of load and a 15 amp circuit with 15 amps of load I personally would choose to grab on to the 15 amp circuit with 15 amps of load....

My reasoning: There is a snowballs chance in HELL that the extra 1/5th of an amp that it takes to kill me will trip the breaker thus de-energizing the dam circuit before I die... Just saying...
 
If I had to choose between a 15 amp circuit with 0 amps of load and a 15 amp circuit with 15 amps of load I personally would choose to grab on to the 15 amp circuit with 15 amps of load....

My reasoning: There is a snowballs chance in HELL that the extra 1/5th of an amp that it takes to kill me will trip the breaker thus de-energizing the dam circuit before I die... Just saying...

Fred, The only way that extra 1/5 A will trip that breaker is if its a GFCI breaker. Non-GFCI breakers are not meant to protect personal. They protect equipment therfor preventing fires.

Also breakers on overload trip within 180 cycles. 3 seconds. You're cooked by then.

If you get between 120 V hot and ground or neutral you will be in parrallel with watever load is on that circuit, period. You will be energized with 120 V and current will flow through your body following the path of least resistance. Any current over 100 mA will kill you.

As a master electrician with over 25 years experience I have seen it all. No matter how you calculate the math, the potential for you to die is real!

In short please be safe when working around any electrical equipment.

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