Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Winners Re-Re-Re-Re-Drawn - 24 hours to Claim!

Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > So who's worked in their main electrical panel?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-05-2013, 03:37 PM   #131
thadius856
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
thadius856's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Marysville
Posts: 2,272
Liked 601 Times on 250 Posts
Likes Given: 155

Default

Should charge him for your time. Sharing circuits between a kitchen and anything other than a dining room or similar is quite literally illegal in almost every jurisdiction. You are under NEC of some version, right? Anyway, I feel your pain. My electrician brought his two daughters (~7 y/o and ~9 y/o) on a Friday afternoon to re-wire my main panel and was trying to have them help him. Worst father ever! I convinced him to let us take the girls inside to play with our parrot and watch some TV. I should have told him to GTFO my property, but it was Friday and he had to complete the last circuit to allow us to bring power back up. I didn't want to sit in the dark all weekend.

Following up on the table saw...

H1-N and H2-N measured 120.1V at the receptacle, H1-H2 240.2V. Rock solid. Took apart modular plug, and it was wired correctly. Took apart the switch box on the inside of the saw, and everything was fine there too. Took the motor off the saw. At this point, I have motor, switch box, and cord all on the ground, so I place the switch box on the table saw and plug in. Entire saw is hot. Put the switch box on the ground and place the motor on the table saw then plug in. Entire saw hot. WTF?!

Found the problem finally. The motor was wired with ground and neutral swapped, so the neutral was bonded to the motor's case. Doesn't make a difference when it was 120V, but when I swapped the plug for 240V, now the case was electrified. Current was having to pass around the case to get to the contacts, so any time you presented a better ground path, BOOM. Swapped the wires back and we're golden now. Grrrr.

__________________
Was this post helpful? Don't forget to click 'Like'!

Thadius Miller, Project Manager -> RaspberryPints

Before you build a keezer, look at this!
Chest Freezer Spec Sheets and Layout Drawings (15 models and counting)
thadius856 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 03:46 PM   #132
whoaru99
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,592
Liked 124 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Hmmm...not quite following that. The saw is wired for 120/240V, and the neutral wire is switched?

__________________

Kegged and Carbing: Russian Imperial Stout
Drinking: Pre-prohibition Lager

whoaru99 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 03:58 PM   #133
thadius856
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
thadius856's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Marysville
Posts: 2,272
Liked 601 Times on 250 Posts
Likes Given: 155

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post
Hmmm...not quite following that. The saw is wired for 120/240V, and the neutral wire is switched?
Correct. Neutral swapped with ground at the motor. Whoever wired it that way was using it on 120V, obviously with no ill effects because they both trace back to the same bus on a 120V circuit without a sub-panel.

When I replaced the plug for 240V 3-prong, I assumed naturally that the saw was wired correctly. Neutral was repurposed to 2nd hot for the 240V delta on the plug, which would have worked perfectly. Instead, that lit up the case of the motor like a Christmas tree. The motor's mounted on a big metal flange, directly bolted to the saw frame, with no break in continuity all the way up to the table top.



This is after I swapped it back. The white wire was originally crimped and bonded to the case. The green wire was tied into the contacts by that black pigtail. Luckily I was able to re-use the crimp, avoiding a drive into town.
__________________
Was this post helpful? Don't forget to click 'Like'!

Thadius Miller, Project Manager -> RaspberryPints

Before you build a keezer, look at this!
Chest Freezer Spec Sheets and Layout Drawings (15 models and counting)
thadius856 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 05:25 PM   #134
Dgonza9
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Evanston, Illinois
Posts: 1,183
Liked 10 Times on 10 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thadius856 View Post
Jesus Christ. Don't listen to some these posts, OP. That's a recipe for disaster.

If you kill the main service disconnect, the lugs coming from the PoCo's side of the panel are still hot and carrying the full 240V @ 200A, or whatever your service is. If you don't know what this means, then really, you need to study up a lot more before attempting or hire it out.



The main service disconnect kills everything downstream from it, which is... everything. If yours doesn't, then you likely have a serious code violation on your hands.



The "big leads" will kill you if you touch them, even if you shut off your service disconnect. If you want those to be de-energized, then you either need to have a pull disconnect upstream from the meter (unlikely) or have the PoCo pull the meter. My PoCo won't put the meter back in without the city inspector's tag, signature and date taped to panel. If your PoCo is anal, you could very well end up in the dark for weeks while you traverse the permitting process, then get an inspection.

If you want to do this yourself, please permit it. We just had a house fire this past year because I failed to find some unpermitted and faulty electrical work (burried under a foot of attic insulation).

Edit: Perhaps this will help show the seriousness of this. Here's pictures of what it looked like the morning after the fire department gutted the attic above my living room. I'm extremely lucky I didn't lose the whole house and nobody died.













Total cost was about $45,000 and counting.

Looks like old knob and tube wiring. When we bought our house (1920's bungalow) nearly all of it was knob and tube. We spent about $8600 getting it replaced when we redid our attic.

What's confusing about electrical to me is how houses can have a giant mix of wiring in them. I mean, we spoke to a variety of electricians and they had a corresponding variety of solutions. You can safely move knob and tube without replacing it. You can replace part of it, etc.

Although we chose to replace all of it, other parts of the house still have romex, BX, etc., even though code in my town calls for everything to be in EMC.

I kept asking our electrician about the safety of this variety of wiring. Keep in mind, I hired the company that is basically the gold standard around here. Been in business forever. Top rated. etc. When I asked him about the Romex he looked at me and said, "All of Europe looks like that. It's fine."

When the inspector showed up, he saw who was doing the work and didn't even really look around that much. Didn't comment at all on the romex wiring that was visible. It was visible because engineered lumbar had to be put in as support as we worked on the attic. You could at this stage see down into many of the walls in other parts of the house.

All I'm saying is that it's hard for me to really get a handle on what's "safe" when it comes to electrical. Codes now call for so much. The reality seems to be that a lot of houses have a lot of stuff that is nowhere near current code. Is it safe? Well, that just becomes a loaded question. Had we not decided to finish our attic we'd still have most of our house filled with knob and tube.
__________________
On Tap: Belgian Barrel Aged Barleywine, Da Yooper's Oatmeal Stout, Breakfast Stout, Hop Your Face Off IIPA, Catcher in the Rye Saison, "Wino-head" Nelsin Sauvin Gumballhead.

Bourbon Barrel Duchesse De Bourgnone
Kegged:

Fermenting English Mild

on Deck: Lager?
Dgonza9 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 05:28 PM   #135
thadius856
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
thadius856's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Marysville
Posts: 2,272
Liked 601 Times on 250 Posts
Likes Given: 155

Default

No knob and tube. No BX. Everything is "Romex" in the house, except for some old remnant of the older cloth-wrapped non-metallic (same stuff, different sheathing). Romex is perfectly safe if used properly.

The only thing that was weird was the three black wires you might be able to see hanging down. Somebody decided it's be a good idea to use three polyethelene single-conductor cables to run the dryer line. It wasn't the cause of the fire, but it certainly helped fuel it while it was smoldering.

__________________
Was this post helpful? Don't forget to click 'Like'!

Thadius Miller, Project Manager -> RaspberryPints

Before you build a keezer, look at this!
Chest Freezer Spec Sheets and Layout Drawings (15 models and counting)
thadius856 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 11:53 PM   #136
lschiavo
Drinks Beer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
lschiavo's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Surrounded by Yoopers
Posts: 4,003
Liked 794 Times on 530 Posts
Likes Given: 548

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannylerch View Post
Because if they aren't union, they are probably a hack.
I just couldn't let this go.

I have been a non-union electrical contractor for over 15 years. I have a degree in electrical engineering. I'm licensed in two states, fully insured and have worked on jobs ranging from MV distribution to intalling a residential doorbell. I've never had a callback from an unsatisfied customer nor a single insurance claim in my career. I guess I'm just a lucky hack.

I see lots of work done by union contractors in my area. A good portion of those electricians I would either fire immediately or have to completely retrain. There are good and bad electricans. Union or not makes no difference. If you hire one, get references. I am happy to provide them to my customers.
__________________
lschiavo is offline
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-06-2013, 12:05 AM   #137
lschiavo
Drinks Beer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
lschiavo's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Surrounded by Yoopers
Posts: 4,003
Liked 794 Times on 530 Posts
Likes Given: 548

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thadius856 View Post
No knob and tube. No BX. Everything is "Romex" in the house, except for some old remnant of the older cloth-wrapped non-metallic (same stuff, different sheathing). Romex is perfectly safe if used properly.

The only thing that was weird was the three black wires you might be able to see hanging down. Somebody decided it's be a good idea to use three polyethelene single-conductor cables to run the dryer line. It wasn't the cause of the fire, but it certainly helped fuel it while it was smoldering.
Knob and tube is actually very safe. The original connections were wrapped, soldered and taped which made for very good connections. Fires attributed to knob and tube are usually because someone tapped into the original wiring and did not make good connections. My dad always said about twisting wirenuts "twist it until you can't anymore and then twist it a few more times". Whoever worked in your attic did not do that.
__________________
lschiavo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-06-2013, 01:03 AM   #138
passedpawn
Waste Allocation Load Lifter - Earth Class
HBT_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
passedpawn's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: ☼ Clearwater, FL ☼
Posts: 19,872
Liked 3705 Times on 2278 Posts
Likes Given: 3209

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lschiavo View Post
Knob and tube is actually very safe. The original connections were wrapped, soldered and taped which made for very good connections. Fires attributed to knob and tube are usually because someone tapped into the original wiring and did not make good connections. My dad always said about twisting wirenuts "twist it until you can't anymore and then twist it a few more times". Whoever worked in your attic did not do that.
I bought a pool heater recently (cheap). It had an electric start for the propane pilot, but nothing electrical worked on it. Turns out the only problem with the entire thing was that a connection under one of the wire nuts was loose. Saved myself $2k by repairing it. The wire nut was buried inside the thing so I guess the previous owner didn't bother to dig too deep.
__________________
Am I Insane or do I really see Heaven in Your Eyes?
passedpawn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-06-2013, 01:08 AM   #139
thadius856
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
thadius856's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Marysville
Posts: 2,272
Liked 601 Times on 250 Posts
Likes Given: 155

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lschiavo View Post
Fires attributed to knob and tube are usually because someone tapped into the original wiring and did not make good connections.
Or, insulation packed in the walls by owners that didn't know what they were doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lschiavo View Post
My dad always said about twisting wirenuts "twist it until you can't anymore and then twist it a few more times". Whoever worked in your attic did not do that.
They didn't even get it close to tight. When the fire investigator's electrical engineer touched the nuts, one literally fell off in his hand before he could twist it. They also left the lid off the junction, buried it 6" in cellulose, used that odd single conductor stuff, and spliced old ungrounded NM into new Romex. It also appears that they left a 240V lead for an old window air conditioner in the wall, live. Admittedly, we just disconnected it and cut the wires so short they could never be spliced live again, but haven't opened the wall yet to see if it was left live in there -- no point in digging out stucco siding to look at a dead circuit.
__________________
Was this post helpful? Don't forget to click 'Like'!

Thadius Miller, Project Manager -> RaspberryPints

Before you build a keezer, look at this!
Chest Freezer Spec Sheets and Layout Drawings (15 models and counting)
thadius856 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-12-2013, 11:50 PM   #140
passedpawn
Waste Allocation Load Lifter - Earth Class
HBT_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
passedpawn's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: ☼ Clearwater, FL ☼
Posts: 19,872
Liked 3705 Times on 2278 Posts
Likes Given: 3209

Default

__________________
Am I Insane or do I really see Heaven in Your Eyes?
passedpawn is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Main power wire gauge for 50A panel summerofgeorge Electric Brewing 17 06-14-2012 12:38 PM
What guage wire from main panel to spa panel? AdamCanFly Electric Brewing 22 02-01-2012 03:36 AM
Opinion on routing control panel electrical/sensor wires jcaudill Brew Stands 4 06-28-2011 12:33 PM
Control panel main power switch...what are you using? Ranger9913 Brew Stands 6 03-12-2010 05:20 PM
Electrical Help with Control Panel for Electric Kettle TheAleMaster Brew Stands 19 02-15-2010 03:42 AM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS