Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > need input on control panel

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-27-2010, 07:48 PM   #1
SpaceCoastBrew
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 136
Liked 2 Times on 1 Posts

Default need input on control panel

My setup:
15 gallon system
two 5500W elements
60A GFCI breaker in home panel and 60A outlet at stand

Goal:
Run both 5500W elements at the same time

I'm using Kal's awesome build and website as a template for how I want to build my panel. The big difference is that I want to run both elements at the same time, thus the 60A input into the panel. After studying Kal's layout, I think there are only a few changes that I would need to make for this to work. Besides the changes below, everything else would remain the same as Kal's design.

1) hardwire 60A feed to the enclosure
2) replace 30A relay with 60A relay at the power input
3) bring both the boil element relay and the HLT element relay hot wiring back to the 60A relay so that no wire ever sees more than 30A
4) add a 30A fast blow fuse in each wire to protect the boil element and HLT element relays
5) instead of a 3 way selector to choose which element is on, use on-off selector for each 30A relay
6) and I was going to add an E-stop button in the control circuit feeding the 60A relay

Of course finding a 60A relay isn't real easy but I think this one will work:
http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_2981415/elk-9200__heavy_duty_relay_contactor

Am I missing anything? I know a picture is worth a thousand words but I don't have a means of drawing up a schematic so, hopefully, this is somewhat clear. Thanks for the help and input!

__________________
SpaceCoastBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-27-2010, 09:38 PM   #2
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
CodeRage's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,254
Liked 29 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

A 60 Amp contactor isn't going to be a trivial thing to find. You're getting into motor starter territory there. For something like that I would use two smaller 40A contactors, one for each element, and use an e-stop circuit to make or break control power to them. Add a third one to provide power for your pumps and other low current AC stuff.
It'll cost about half as much as a small motor starter at least.

I am in Melbourne so if you ever need a hand I might be available .

__________________
Brutus 20e build | Electrical Primer for Brewers | Auber SYL-2362A2 PID Install & Config
So as I am walking out the door this morning I think to my self:
"self, going to work on Monday is like knowing you're going to get kicked in the nuts. You just don't know when or by who"
CodeRage is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 12:28 AM   #3
SpaceCoastBrew
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 136
Liked 2 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Thanks Code. I'm just up 95 from you so I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Splitting the input is my backup plan if I can't find a suitable 60A relay. Right now I'm leaning towards this relay and ripping it out of the included enclosure:
http://www.elkproducts.com/_webapp_2981415/elk-9200__heavy_duty_relay_contactor

What do you think?

__________________
SpaceCoastBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 12:52 AM   #4
short_mark
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CT River Valley - where 2 meet 1
Posts: 10
Default

Consider a hard panel disconnect / contactor as an alternative. See McMaster-Carr part no. 7277K54. You could use it to turn the panel on and off; also, it makes the E-Stop unnecessary because you can use it to hard stop the whole panel. I also find it safer because there is no 120 that jumps the relay.

__________________

If I wanted it to be simple, I'd buy the beer

short_mark is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 12:59 AM   #5
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

You may already be aware, but 60amp "stuff" tends to be very spendy and hard to find. Plugs, receptacles, cord, etc. I started down the path of a 60amp panel and ended up revisiting my requirements.

Are you planning to use PID's like Kal, or a different control?

Ed

__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 01:16 AM   #6
kal
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
kal's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,065
Liked 200 Times on 138 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio-Ed View Post
You may already be aware, but 60amp "stuff" tends to be very spendy and hard to find. Plugs, receptacles, cord, etc. I started down the path of a 60amp panel and ended up revisiting my requirements.
The only plug/receptacles he'd need would be input to the panel itself. The element plugs/receptacles would be 30A.

That said, he could (gulp) hardwire the panel into a small 60A sub-panel that connects to the house cct breaker panel. The only issue I'd see with this is code: You've got this new control panel *directly* connected to your house circuitry so it's now part of your house so in most places (US included IIRC), it would fall under house wiring code, need to be inspected, etc. I leave it up to him to decide where to follow/break rules.

Other than that I think you have everything else fairly well thought out. You obviously know what you're doing which is a first good sign!

As others have mentioned you're starting to see the difficulties with going with a larger mains (60A vs 30A). This is why I thought long and hard: Do I really *need* both elements to be active at the same time? And then ended up going with a 30A feed.

I don't want to question your original design goal, but are you sure you really need to run both the HLT and BK elements at the same time? Usually the only reason to do this is when brewing 2 batches back to back: You want to heat up strike water/mash while the first is boiling.

Kal
kal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 02:06 AM   #7
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post
The only plug/receptacles he'd need would be input to the panel itself. The element plugs/receptacles would be 30A.

That said, he could (gulp) hardwire the panel into a small 60A sub-panel that connects to the house cct breaker panel. The only issue I'd see with this is code: You've got this new control panel *directly* connected to your house circuitry so it's now part of your house so in most places (US included IIRC), it would fall under house wiring code, need to be inspected, etc. I leave it up to him to decide where to follow/break rules.

Other than that I think you have everything else fairly well thought out. You obviously know what you're doing which is a first good sign!

As others have mentioned you're starting to see the difficulties with going with a larger mains (60A vs 30A). This is why I thought long and hard: Do I really *need* both elements to be active at the same time? And then ended up going with a 30A feed.

I don't want to question your original design goal, but are you sure you really need to run both the HLT and BK elements at the same time? Usually the only reason to do this is when brewing 2 batches back to back: You want to heat up strike water/mash while the first is boiling.

Kal
There really seems to be a big price jump when you go beyond 50 amp "components"... The mains plug and receptacle for the panel are $50+ each (if you decide to go twistloc double that)... add a 60 AMP GFCI add a length of appropriate SO cord and cord grips and you are probably $300+ just getting power to the box.

I agree with thinking about your requirements... I ended up with a 50amp panel and I know you (Kal) are getting it done with 30amps.
If you need 60, go for it... but if you haven't priced the basic components yet... you might want to take a quick look.

Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 02:35 AM   #8
SpaceCoastBrew
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 136
Liked 2 Times on 1 Posts

Default

By going "directly" into my panel, what I really meant is that I'll take the 60A feed from the house panel to an outlet by the stand. I'll have a 60A receptacle and plug which will be hardwired to the panel so I'll be able to remove the panel if I ever wanted to. So not really tied to the house - that should ease any concern about inspection. I know that those components aren't cheap but I look at this as an investment and I only want to do this once (and correctly). My "requirement" is to be able to do batches back to back. My time is valuable and I think the the investment in components will pay for themselves in time.

Ed, I am using the PIDs like Kal did. I'm actually using the SYL-2362 model.

Thanks for the input so far!

__________________
SpaceCoastBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 02:56 AM   #9
Tiber_Brew
It's about the beer.
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tiber_Brew's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: U.P., Michigan, Michigan
Posts: 1,988
Liked 79 Times on 64 Posts
Likes Given: 110

Default

Is there any particular reason you can't use two 4500W elements?

I can run both of my 4500W elements at the same time no problem with 50A supply hardware.

Just curious,
TB

__________________
On tap:
1. Bourbon Barrel Imperial Oatmeal Stout 2. Cali Common 3. IPA 4. Boh Pils 5.[Nitrogen] Dry Stout
Primary:
1. Oktoberfest 2. Oktoberfest 3. none 4. none 5. none 6. none
Secondary:
1. Brett Ale 2. none 3. none 4. none
Bottled:
About 36 gallons of beer & 4.2 gallons of mead
Kegged & conditioning:
Bourbon Barrel Imperial Oatmeal Stout, Breakfast Stout x2, Belgian Dubbel, Cali Common, IPA, Bohemian Pils, Chocolate Milk Stout x2
Tiber_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2010, 04:59 AM   #10
killion
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by short_mark View Post
Consider a hard panel disconnect / contactor as an alternative. See McMaster-Carr part no. 7277K54. You could use it to turn the panel on and off; also, it makes the E-Stop unnecessary because you can use it to hard stop the whole panel.
This looks like a good idea because it combines the e-stop and the power button, plus you can still have an indicator light. Has anyone tried this in a live system?
__________________
killion is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to build a control panel (part 1) kal Electric Brewing 521 06-21-2013 06:53 PM
240VAC Toolbox Control Panel with Pics passedpawn Electric Brewing 104 01-05-2012 03:15 AM
The Graham Box Control Unit from more beer killian Electric Brewing 3 12-03-2010 05:23 AM