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Old 12-08-2013, 08:35 PM   #1
jcmcdowell
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Default Need Help with a Wiring Diagram for 1 PID 3-5500w element controller...

Hi Guys,

NOTE- I have 3 phase power

I am building a variation of a single vessel brewery/braumeister with a 55 gal SS drum as the MT and BK. I want to use the Auberins PID SWA-24X1 PID/Timer controller and 3-regular 240v 5500w heating elements.

I will have one pump.

I'm trying to keep the controller as simple and cheap to build as I can.

I'm thinking I need-

ON/OFF illuminated button
PID/TIMER (wired 240v?)
Alarm light/buzzer
reset button for timer
Element on/off switch (one for all 3?) (illuminated)- can it be wired for one contactor?
Pump on/off switch (illuminated) (my pump is 240v)
enclosure (like the 8x10 pre cut one from Auberins)
3 SSR's (5500w at 208v is less than 30 amps max draw)
3 heat sinks (3-40amp or 1 big heat sink?)
1- temp sensor probe with 1.5" tri clover

I have 200amps 3 phase power. I was planning on using a triple 30amp breaker and 3-208v lines to the elements. All the elements would be on/off at the same time to balance the load. The 240v pump and PID another 20amp breaker?

I have on hand the pump, a bunch of 1.5" tri clover fittings and ferrules, the male and female 30amp sockets, connectors for sensors, valves, etc...

I just need to pull the trigger on the Auberins order.

I've seen diagrams for 2-5500w elements but not 3. I have the 3 phase but I'd like to essentially plan on using the 4 wire as separate 208v lines to standard 240v elements. I know I won't get the full 5500 watts this way, but three elements should be plenty.

References, help, or ideas?

Thanks

JC McDowell
current keggle system

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:22 PM   #2
P-J
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jcmcdowell,

Just a heads up for you. You can buy heating elements rated for 208V power in most all of the sizes used. Boston Heating Supply carries a lot of what you might be needing.

As soon as I have a litte more info (and time) I'd be glad to try and make a diagram for you.

Edit: It does take a bunch of knowledge regarding 3 phase power to come up with a plan for you. Fortunately I do have that stuffed away in my brain somewhere. LOL ...

P-J

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Old 12-09-2013, 02:32 AM   #3
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Default Mucho Gracias...

I really appreciate the help P-J. I've been researching, reading, and lurking trying to come up with a solution and I was hoping to connect with you based on your knowledge of what we are trying to accomplish.

If I can get away with LESS parts, that's ok by me as well. My list is based on ignorance more than demand.

I have 4 SS 55 gal drums. If I can make one work, I want to scale up for a modular nano brewery with a capacity of 1.5 bbl up to 6 bbl.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

JC

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Old 12-09-2013, 02:36 AM   #4
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Default Boston Heating Supply-

Pricey but beautiful...

http://bostonheatingsupply.com/AP12877QH.aspx

6000w 208v heating elements

* Hey if you're only going to do it once (or in my case 3 times)...

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Old 12-09-2013, 02:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmcdowell View Post
Pricey but beautiful...

http://bostonheatingsupply.com/AP12877QH.aspx

6000w 208v heating elements

* Hey if you're only going to do it once (or in my case 3 times)...
Excellent. I'm glad that I posted the reference for you.

Now I need to put this old man's brain in gear. It's going to be a rather complex mission.

(Edit) Any more details?

P-J
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:06 AM   #6
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Default More details...

Well...

What I'm planning is an 'outside the box' Braumeister concept. Instead of putting the grain in a vessel and then putting it INSIDE the bigger vessel and then having to lift it out and then dump it, I was thinking of putting the grain vessel NEXT TO THE LARGER VESSEL. I was thinking the larger vessel would have the 3 elements, a temp probe on a T on the side wall output to a pump which pumps the wort UP into the bottom of the smaller grain vessel.

The grain vessel would be a 35 gal stainless stock pot and have a 30x30 mesh false bottom and hot liquor/wort would recirculate UP through the grain bed (similar to the Braumeister). The grain vessel would have a 30x30 screen at the top locked in to prevents grain from recirculating into the larger vessel (probably reinforced with a bigger steel mesh screen) and above that a port that gravity feeds the wort back to the main vessel. Everything would be tri-clover fit.

When mash is complete, sparge UP via 3 way valve using the pump and then drain DOWN when hitting boil volume (either in a bucket to be dumped into boil or via valves to reverse pump direction back into the bottom of the larger vessel).

Clean grain vessel and use for hopping. Each vessel would probably need insulating to maintain temps.

IN THEORY- no need to vorlauf (constant recirculating) and no need to whirlpool for hops. Potentially I could use the grain vessel as a kind of hop back to catch hot break by changing the pump location into the grain vessel and removing the top screen. Or have a hop back that replaces the grain vessel during the boil.

I'm hoping I can hit 40 gal batches with the grain vessel. I have 4 SS drums which could be added to create a modular nano brewery from 1 bbl to 6 bbl depending on demand, gravity, and style.

I leaning towards a propane tankless hot water heater with a blending tank to serve as a HLT for all the vessels. If I stage it right, I could use one tankless/blending tank for all 4 brewing systems (30 minute break between brews?).

Each 'system' would need it's own control panel- hence the desire to keep it simple and cheap (because I might need to build 4 of them).

I have a 200 amp 3 phase panel in the building. There is no other power draw besides lights. The building is heated by wood stove. Other activities that draw temporary power would take place when not brewing (grinding grain, power tools, etc...)

I'm trying to prototype the build this winter before I commit to building 4 of them.

It could be as basic as unplugging a plug in between brews to insure a secure disconnect versus complex wiring. The panel would be maybe 15' away from all the systems. I could put power drops to keep the wiring off the floor. The systems could be on castors and moved around with their own cords and plugs to make things easier. I was envisioning a "V" shaped setup with the control panel on left, 55gal drum in center, and grain vessel on the right. A steel or stainless frame holding everything (maybe welded to the 55 gal drum).

I have 6 of the fancy brewers hardware tri clover heating element enclosures, 6 female 30amp 240v plugs, and 6 male plugs. I have plenty of ferrules to weld on to the drums, valves, 3-ways, and 3/4" ID high temp food grade tubing.

I am lacking the Auberins bit and pieces.

Too much information?

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:45 PM   #7
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I really hope you document the build. This is an interesting idea and I would love to see how it turns out.

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Old 12-10-2013, 12:29 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by moclamd View Post
I really hope you document the build. This is an interesting idea and I would love to see how it turns out.
+1. Also, they also have some 208v/6000w LWD elements, but much more expensive. For an HLT it wouldn't matter, but it is certainly something you might want to consider for a BK. Or even step down to lower wattages if you are going to use multiple elements....
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:42 AM   #9
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Oh, and you may want to review this thread, discussing the PID w/ built-in timer, as there are some limitations worth understanding before you pull the trigger. http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/aub...rience-301167/

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Old 12-10-2013, 01:42 AM   #10
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I read the thread. Interesting. I was hoping for some interactive control between the timer and PID that would start the mash out once temp was hit or alarm when boil was close...

I had thought about going the Arduino route- but I just don't have the time to learn Arduino C+ and play with new hardware (although it would be fun and I have 7 books on the subject for when I DO have time- good reading time in the grave I understand, about when I'll get a good night sleep too I suppose).

I'm just tight on room on the panel. I was going to just use a magnetic kitchen timer- which is still viable. Not as elegant solution but I am just working on the proof of concept. It doesn't have to be pretty this version.

As it is- what basic components I priced out is hitting under $300 (just barely). That's with one PID, 3 SSR's, heat sinks, enclosure, and a few buttons and switches. I have everything else (connectors mainly- still need elements and WIRE!).

ON a side note- it's funny that we spend SO MUCH MONEY on the shortest part of the process. Fermenting and Conditioning take so much longer than brewing and are equally if not more important. BUT- it isn't the same sexy, shiny, digital, burgundy LED, devil may care vicarious experience

I mean really, after brewing, we're waiting on yeast to burp, fart then roll over and go to sleep. What's so sexy about that? You guys that have been married a long time don't answer!

In conclusion, I may just go back to the basic Auberins PID. It saves the cost of a reset button. I was hoping for SO MUCH MORE!!!

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