New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > How to build a control panel (part 1)




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-03-2011, 06:02 PM   #291
stevehaun
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: hudson, wi
Posts: 556
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 17

Default

Definite purpose contactors are widely used in industry and HVAC. I don't know of any advantages of a DPDT high power relay versus a DPDT definite purpose contactor. Maybe someone else knows the difference.



__________________
stevehaun is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2011, 06:11 PM   #292
Scut_Monkey
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,656
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbognerks View Post
The difference between DPST and DPDT is that with the DPDT you can go two ways with the electricity. Coil open makes the relay closed for Circuit A and open for Circuit B. Coil closed reverses this and makes Circuit A open and Circuit B close. I think they make DPST relays, but it's more common to find DPDT relays. For Kals build, he really only needed DPST, but since DPDT are more common, he chose those. So for a Kal style build, the DPST contactor is just fine.
Thanks for the response. However, I'm not questioning the difference between DPDT and DPST but to use an definite purpose contactor instead of a relay. My question is essentially why this should or should not be used for Kals build when they are cheaper and seem to be equivalent to a relay.

I can't seem to find much info explaining this on HBT or via google searches.


__________________
Scut_Monkey is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2011, 06:15 PM   #293
Scut_Monkey
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,656
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehaun View Post
Definite purpose contactors are widely used in industry and HVAC. I don't know of any advantages of a DPDT high power relay versus a DPDT definite purpose contactor. Maybe someone else knows the difference.
In all reality I don't see myself changing how I will be build this control box (Kal's control box). However, someone with more understanding might be more comfortable switching to use a definite purpose contactor rather than a relay.

I posed this question on Kal's website as well. http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24680. I realize some people get upset with others posting in different areas for the same question but I figure there is a higher number of readers overall on this sight but perhaps more people on Kal's sight that have built and used this control box.
__________________
Scut_Monkey is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-03-2011, 06:45 PM   #294
stevehaun
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: hudson, wi
Posts: 556
Liked 11 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 17

Default

Kal refers to both on his website:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=7
I think the difference may largely be semantic.

I use definite purpose contactors in my system but my system is 50 amp 240 vac. Thus I needed a 50 amp contactor for the power entrance into my control panel and a 30 amp 240 vac contactor for each element. I have two elements in both my BK and HLT. I think the definite purpose contactors are made for higher amperage applications such as HVAC, lighting and large electric motors. The DPDT relays are typically lower amperage applications. If you look for definite purpose contactors it is not uncommon to find 75 to 100 amp two or three pole contactors.

Hopefully, someone will give you a concrete answer.

__________________
stevehaun is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2011, 12:34 AM   #295
Quaffer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Snohomish, WA
Posts: 489
Liked 21 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scut_Monkey View Post
In all reality I don't see myself changing how I will be build this control box (Kal's control box). However, someone with more understanding might be more comfortable switching to use a definite purpose contactor rather than a relay.
Scut, with the risk of being proven wrong, I'd say that all contactors are Single Throw (xPST). If it is Dual Throw then it is a relay.

Contactors have special heavy-duty contacts. Despite being Single Throw they use two contacts per pole. Two contact pairs in series increase the probability that the contactor can break the current should one contact pair be welded closed.
__________________

Alcohol, the source of - and solution to - all of life’s problems. H.J.S.
My keezer, My E-brewery build thread, How I soldered 1" nut for heater

Quaffer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2011, 01:07 AM   #296
kal
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
kal's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,959
Liked 177 Times on 120 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbognerks View Post
The difference between DPST and DPDT is that with the DPDT you can go two ways with the electricity. Coil open makes the relay closed for Circuit A and open for Circuit B. Coil closed reverses this and makes Circuit A open and Circuit B close. I think they make DPST relays, but it's more common to find DPDT relays. For Kals build, he really only needed DPST, but since DPDT are more common, he chose those. So for a Kal style build, the DPST contactor is just fine.
Exactly right. DPDT relays are indeed more common and that's why I used them. 30A contactors (single pole, single throw) with a 120V coil are fine too. I do mention also being able to use contactors on my site (as Steve H mentions) but I purposely try to shy away from given a bazillion options to people since it just creates confusion. Either will work. My instructions have to be based on what I bought in 2009. I don't have the luxury of building 10 variations of the control panel and writing up instructions and diagrams for each. Change only 5-10 parts and the permutations and combinations go into the thousands. That's a lot of pictures to draw up!

Back when I build my panel (early 2009) relays were more common. The contactor vs relay was a non-issue since they were basically the same price. I liked the relays since you could see the physical contacts and if needed, I could clean them down the road. Contactors are all sealed up. Probably not an issue but given that the price was the same back when I bought, I went with the 'bigger', more accessible DPDT relays.

Rant: Some of the eBay sellers are now listing the parts I use for literally 2-10x time price they used to sell for just a month or so ago. Example: The AC -> DC variable power supply I used was $6.99 shipped when I bought it, now it's listed as $70 by some. The relay in question was under $20, now it's $45. Bastards!

The moral of the story: If you need more handholding when wiring everything up, use what I did as the parts in the diagrams will then look like the ones I used and you don't have to try to 'translate' how to wire things up. If you know how to deviate from the parts listed and still provide the same functionality, by all means go for it. If you're *really* lost, wait for the control panel to be sold fully assembled and ready to go (hopefully not long now!)

Happy building! Err, brewing!

Kal
kal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2011, 02:57 AM   #297
Tiber_Brew
It's about the beer.
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Tiber_Brew's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: U.P., Michigan
Posts: 1,875
Liked 64 Times on 52 Posts
Likes Given: 95

Default

Are you looking to possibly quit your day job, Kal? Just curious.

Cheers,
TB

__________________
On tap:
1. Imperial Oatmeal Espresso Stout 2. Dubbel 3. Brown Ale 4. Pale 5.[Nitrogen] Dry Stout
Primary:
1.Bock 2. Bock 3. Orange Wheat 4. Orange Wheat 5. none 6. none
Secondary:
1. Brett Ale 2. Helles 3. Helles 4. none
Bottled:
About 58 gallons of beer & 4.2 gallons of mead
Kegged & conditioning:
Imperial Bourbon Barrel Oatmeal Stout x2, Belgian Dubbel, Altbier x2, Pale Ale, Porter x2
Tiber_Brew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2011, 02:31 PM   #298
kal
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
kal's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,959
Liked 177 Times on 120 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiber_Brew View Post
Are you looking to possibly quit your day job, Kal? Just curious.
Nope! But never say never!

Kal
__________________
TheElectricBrewery.com: A step by step guide to building your own electric brewery
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
kal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2011, 05:20 PM   #299
joety
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
joety's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Germantown Wisconsin
Posts: 1,434
Liked 14 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post
Rant: Some of the eBay sellers are now listing the parts I use for literally 2-10x time price they used to sell for just a month or so ago. Example: The AC -> DC variable power supply I used was $6.99 shipped when I bought it, now it's listed as $70 by some. The relay in question was under $20, now it's $45. Bastards!

The moral of the story: If you need more handholding when wiring everything up, use what I did as the parts in the diagrams will then look like the ones I used and you don't have to try to 'translate' how to wire things up. If you know how to deviate from the parts listed and still provide the same functionality, by all means go for it. If you're *really* lost, wait for the control panel to be sold fully assembled and ready to go (hopefully not long now!)

Happy building! Err, brewing!

Kal
Interesting, I was still able to buy those AC/DC units cheap a couple months ago. I also ordered single pole relays as I built a 120 volt RIMS (1500W element) version of your control panel and didn't need the double pole relays. When the package arrived they shipped both.
__________________
Conical 1 - Bye-Week Blonde
Conical 2 - Empty
Carboys - Cougar Killer DIPA

Secondaries - Sunday Night Hoppy Pale Ale
Lagering in Kegs - None

Kegged: American Wheat/Rye, Nut Brown Ale, Munich Helles, Belgian Stout, Resurrection Milk Stout, Bourbon County Stout, BLC
Bottled: Oaked Bourbon Porter
Planned: Baltic Porter
joety is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-14-2011, 11:21 PM   #300
kal
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
kal's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,959
Liked 177 Times on 120 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMPLER View Post
PS... Is there way to print out the full documentation of your control panel build that you have written up on your website? I am curious as this would be amazing piece of information to have on hand for my future conversion to Electric Brewing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfenton78 View Post
Kal, You think it might be possible to get a pdf or easily printable version?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post
I will likely be offering a complete downloadable/printable PDF version of the entire brewery built instructions (not just the control panel) once the entire writeup is done. This will not be free however. It'll likely cost a few dollars to offset the first point I made above.

Hi everyone!

A heads up that I do indeed now have a complete PDF version available for download and printing. I hope you have lots of paper however!

The Complete Guide to Building Your Home Brewery is now done. It's over 350 pages of detailed step by step instructions with hundreds of pictures and diagrams. The perfect Valentine's Day gift for that special someone!



Link: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/the-complete-guide-to-building-your-brewery

Kal


__________________
TheElectricBrewery.com: A step by step guide to building your own electric brewery
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
kal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electric brewery build nostalgia Electric Brewing 191 12-09-2013 07:04 PM
240VAC Toolbox Control Panel with Pics passedpawn Electric Brewing 104 01-05-2012 03:15 AM
The Graham Box Control Unit from more beer killian Electric Brewing 3 12-03-2010 05:23 AM