HELP! Breaker popping

Hey Guys,

This is the first problem with my electric brewing setup. I was heating strike water and I popped a breaker on my 240vac hlt element. The SSR is a teledyne sd24r50 with both hot 240v legs switched through it. Breaker is 25amp ebrewsupply branded din rain mounted. Element is camco 5500watt straight ulwd. 30-amp twist lock out of panel and into 10/3 soow. 10 gauge thhn stranded wiring inside panel with a 6 ga feed.

Everything inside the panel is nice and cool to the touch, after physical disconnection from power supply, with the exception of the breaker. I am thinking it is just a bad breaker. I have a spare I can swap in. Even the SSR and heatsink as well as all external wiring.

Should I just swap in the new breaker and give it a go?

All the wiring connections are nice and tight with good contact: .3 or less ohms resisitance. After double checking resisitence I realized that I have no continuity through one side of the breaker. I think it failed. I am going to replace and retry.

Do you have a meter? Can you check your amp draw? Can you check for shorts, opens, or grounds?

Some times when they pop you have to flip the breaker back and fourth a couple of times to get it to reset.

I can't check amp draw. :/

No shorts that I can find so far. 10.6 ohms resistence through the element. I am checking with a fluke 177.

No continuity to ground?

Not that I can find anywhere.

I swapped the breaker. Under load the breaker is buzzing on the HLT only. The BK breaker is silent. That can't be good. Under load I have 10-30ohms of resistance through the SSR. It bounces around. When the SSR is off I have 8.6Mohm of resistance, which is in the range of the other outputs.

FWIW, this is the 9th brew on the panel plus 2-3 test sessions with hot water to practice my processes.

I swapped in a different ssr of the same exact model. I get the same buzz from the replacement breaker on the HLT circuit yet the breaker on the BK circuit is completely silent. My heating elements have twist lock plugs into the panel and I can switch them. The circuit breaker behavior does not change. I am thinking about just running this as is and see if the breaker fails again.

Do you have the ability to read current on the offending circuit? It looks like your element should be pulling roughly 22 amps. From what I have seen with elements the watt value can be +/- a certain percent.

For example I bought a 120v element that was supposed to be 1000 watts. When in actuality it was actually more like 1100 or so. The resistance you showed above at 10.6 ohms makes sense, but that can change as the element heats.

So the reason I wrote all this is going back to your buzzing breaker. You said its a 25 amp breaker. Even though the breaker is sized above what your expected amperage should be. It is extremely close to the operating point of the breaker. That buzzing could be from the elements inside the breaker being on the verge of tripping, just not quite there. When you get chatter from a breaker like that, that means there is some contact point that is getting ready to make or break. When they chatter they will heat up more, and heat is more than likely the mechanism that breaker uses to trip.

I haven't taken the time to check all the ratings of your equipment. I would prefer you do that on your own. Without cracking the books I will say that you should be safe to up the rating on that breaker to 30 amps. You will want to double check me on that though.

If you check everything and believe that all is well with your wiring and such things. This would be something I would check if I had the same problem. Hopefully my long winded response is helpful.

Hey that is helpful. I'll up to some 30-amp breakers and see what happens. So far so good today. I'm halfway through the mash now.

From what I have read the rest of my items are sized correctly.

What type of breaker do I want? The differences are just the trip curve.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...2_Series)/B_Curve_(6A-63A,_WMZS2Bxx)/WMZS2B30

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Series)/C_Curve_(0.5A-63A,_WMZS2Cxx)/WMZS2C30

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Series)/D_Curve_(0.5A-40A,_WMZS2Dxx)/WMZS2D30

So all things considered I don't think it will really matter at all which one you would buy. I will admit I have never really dove into the ultra specifics of breaker operation. There are some major items to consider though.

Most important, in no order. Voltage rating, (which I'm sure you are aware of) Maximum current breaking ability, (usually rated in thousands of amps) and of course trip current threshold.

The time curves relate to their ability to tolerate an overcurrent for a period of time before tripping. This is based on the circuit or load that you have on the circuit.

A purely resistive circuit (which you have) will not do anything weird with current. You turn on a switch, and current flows. (There is more to it actually but its beyond explaining)

An inductive circuit (you dont have) like a motor, pump, something that involves a coil of wire will have an inrush of current for a very short period of time. So when you turn on a switch to a circuit with a motor there is a momentary rush of current usually about 10 times the motors rating before it settles out to the motors rated current. So a one hp motor running at 120v could have an inrush current of almost 60 amps initially, then reduce down to 6 amps shortly after.

A breaker rated to trip over a period of time eliminates what would be considered nuisance tripping from that initial current.

I way over explained myself here, but ultimately you do not need to worry about those curves with what your intended purpose is for the element. As long as the breaker is 30 amps, you are good on this one.

I have no advice regarding electronics but just wanted to say that when i first saw this thread i thought it said "HELP! Breaker pooping!"
....perhaps i'm overdue for some prescription glasses.

The breaker is there to protect the wiring, that's why a 25a breaker is an oddball that doesn't come in type you can put in a load center. You have 10 awg wire so use a 30a breaker. You probably have thermal breakers, so the buzzing is the bimetal getting close to springing open.

trimixdiver1 said:

The breaker is there to protect the wiring, that's why a 25a breaker is an oddball that doesn't come in type you can put in a load center. You have 10 awg wire so use a 30a breaker. You probably have thermal breakers, so the buzzing is the bimetal getting close to springing open.

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I second this. A 2P 30A breaker will cost about $10 at HD/Lowes/Menards et al. It sounds like all your wiring is good for a 30A circuit. A cheap clamp-on ammeter would cost about $50 or so. Clamp the jaws around one of the leads and it reads the current in that lead. Both hot leads should read about the same.

petey_c said:

I second this. A 2P 30A breaker will cost about $10 at HD/Lowes/Menards et al. It sounds like all your wiring is good for a 30A circuit. A cheap clamp-on ammeter would cost about $50 or so. Clamp the jaws around one of the leads and it reads the current in that lead. Both hot leads should read about the same.

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Yep, going to order some 30 amp breakers. Can't buy them at HD. That is a two hour drive and I doubt they carry din rail breakers.

Did you happen to talk to eBrewSupply about your breaker issue? It sounds like my setup is spec'd similar to yours and my breaker tripped during an initial run. It hasn't repeated but I haven't had a chance to run everything again as I just got my BK back together (long story).


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I haven't contacted them yet. Haven't had time. Honestly, when I bought the stuff I just assumed that their breaker would work with a 5500w element because that is what they build their kits with. I wasn't paying attention to how close I was to maxing it out. The quality of their made in China crap is kinda low. Automation direct sells Eaton breakers for $18 each for 30 amp 2 pole with free 2 day shipping...

trimixdiver1 said:

You probably have thermal breakers, so the buzzing is the bimetal getting close to springing open.

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You probably have a magnetic/thermal breaker which includes an electromagnet coil through which the load flows. It attracts a lever held in place by a spring. When the load current is above the trip level the spring is overcome, the lever moves and the breaker trips. As you are near trip the lever is being tugged pretty hard and is acting just like the armature in a buzzer. The magnetic field reverses 120 times a second so the lever vibrates at a 120 Hz rate. That's what you hear.

The thermal trip element, conversely, has a long time constant so that its temperature rises smoothly (and falls smoothly after the breaker opens or the load is switched off). It does not buzz.

ajdelange said:

You probably have a magnetic/thermal breaker which includes an electromagnet coil through which the load flows. It attracts a lever held in place by a spring. When the load current is above the trip level the spring is overcome, the lever moves and the breaker trips. As you are near trip the lever is being tugged pretty hard and is acting just like the armature in a buzzer. The magnetic field reverses 120 times a second so the lever vibrates at a 120 Hz rate. That's what you hear.



The thermal trip element, conversely, has a long time constant so that its temperature rises smoothly (and falls smoothly after the breaker opens or the load is switched off). It does not buzz.

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I was assuming he had a cheap CB. But the coil would definitely be the reason, not the bimetal like I said. Thanks

Revived thread!
Did the OP replace the breaker and did it solve the issue?

Yep! I bought this breaker: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Series)/C_Curve_(0.5A-63A,_WMZS2Cxx)/WMZS2C30

And replaced all the breakers in my panel. I have brewed twice now with these parts with no problems. No other changes to the panel.

You replaced all of the 25amp internal breakers to the 30's or just the one bothersome one?

I emailed Ryan at EBS and he mentioned they are going to be putting in a new 30amp breaker in lieu of the 25amp one they are supplying now due to this issue sometime early 2015. Seems the mileage on the 25amp breaker is not what it should be which sounds like what you ran into.

He did mention they would replace any 25amp ones with the new 30amp ones free of charge when they get them in stock Q1 2015(Loving EBS's support man..Ryan and crew are the absolute best!).

I am looking at putting in 30 amp breakers to start with on mine when I build it out over the holiday break..Its either that or build it with the 25's and just roll with it until the 30's come in and swap em out..
decisions, decisions..

That is not the response I got from them. I got more of a "so what" type response. I swapped all the breakers. Going away from anything Made in china. I have teledyne dual relays instead of the cheapie fotek type

So what ebrew uses is the made in China I guess? I am building out my e brewery now and want something that will last.

part16john said:

So what ebrew uses is the made in China I guess? I am building out my e brewery now and want something that will last.

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It's more of a quality issue than country of origin. While there is crap made in China, there is also good stuff made there too. I use Seimens and AB breakers, I'm sure they are not USA made, but are made well.

part16john said:

So what ebrew uses is the made in China I guess? I am building out my e brewery now and want something that will last.

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Slightly off topic but pertains to comments above.


If I had to guess Id say about 85% of all electrical components sold are from china now including the ones rebranded and marked up and sold by "American" companies under older American brandnames..(Now days large companies sell thier naming rights when they go under and they are used to pedal cheaper products to unsuspecting buyers with the "old world" mentality that the brick and morter companies still dominate the US like when they were kids.) for example the same companies like Holley and Honeywell own many namebrands that used to be and most still think are competitors but they basically pedel cheaper knock off products under older American namebrands like "autolite" spark plugs for example which are now made by various companies in many third world manufacturing facilities and sold "under license" by honeywell to use the name for marketing reasons. (I once bought 4 of the same model spark plug to find three of them were made in 3 different countries!)

The difference is some times the American companies have thier own quality control reps they fly over to china whenever the manufacturing companies tries to cheapen the product and vary from the required specs to make more money themselves... I have been told by countless customers this can be a seemingly non ending game of cat and mouse. although some good quality stuff comes from there now days too as already mentioned.Hell ther are even making the chevy spark and aveo in Korea now at the deawoo factory and rebranding them so folks "That only buy American" but on a budget can buy in blissful ignorance. On the flipside of that a few years ago you could buy a "Toyota Cavalier" in japan thats actually made in the states by Chevy.. Not sure what they sell now.

I have been very lucky with my builds... lots of cheap components bought direct through amazon and ebay and so far only two problems.. a flakey led indicator on a 12v switch and a faulty 24v powersupply ..both were replaced quickly and free of charge through ebay sellers...

I have to laugh because I pass the crumbling abandoned "Allegheny Ludlum plant" at least once a week... They were absorbed into the company now known as "Teledyne" which "is an American industrial conglomerate primarily based in the United States but with global operations."Better look closely at were those SSR's were really made..(mine are from France BTW). I have two of those myself along with 3 cheap fotek knockoffs.

sandyeggoxj said:

That is not the response I got from them. I got more of a "so what" type response. I swapped all the breakers. Going away from anything Made in china. I have teledyne dual relays instead of the cheapie fotek type

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Very odd you got this response as Ryan and the folks over there have been nothing but accommodating with me..very good at answering all my questions and they even forgot to put in the 10/3 SJOOW wire on my element kit and they got it shipped the very next day.. I know a lot of folks here have been using their kits with no issues..guess I will put it together and see what mileage I get in the first few brews.
As far as china vs others..most every thing electronic is Chinese these days. Even apple products(event though they are "designed" in California...lol).

bbohanon said:

Very odd you got this response as Ryan and the folks over there have been nothing but accommodating with me..very good at answering all my questions and they even forgot to put in the 10/3 SJOOW wire on my element kit and they got it shipped the very next day.. I know a lot of folks here have been using their kits with no issues..guess I will put it together and see what mileage I get in the first few brews.
As far as china vs others..most every thing electronic is Chinese these days. Even apple products(event though they are "designed" in California...lol).

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I see a big difference between cheap chinese and quality chinese. High-end electronics made in china and backed by big american companies are a far cry from a cheap breaker. The eaton breakers I replaced mine with have a noticeably higher build quality.

I am selling a few of the breakers from ebrewsupply. I would be happy to give you a great deal on them. 3 2-pole breakers and 1 single pole breaker for $20 shipped.