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Old 12-11-2012, 04:16 AM   #1
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Default Help w Schematic: 2 5.5kw element, 30 amp, switched

I'm looking for help with an electrical schematic given my "dos"/"don'ts" list below.

My system:
3 vessel electric (no HERMS), 1 5.5kw element in HLT, 1 5.5kw element in kettle
Home depot spa panel w GFI break "up stream" from control panel
Bud Nema 4 10.5"x7"x5.5" enclosure
Switchcraft "quick disconnect" power in and out cables pretty much everywhere

Features I want

  • Main on/off (2 way) illuminated switch (no key start) -supported by 2 pole 40amp contactor with 120v coil
  • E-stop mushroom push button (turn to reset)
  • 3 way illuminated switch to switch between HLT, Kettle, and center off position; light should be powered by 120v -supported on back end by 2 SSRs and 2 Contactors (or one of each if you have some sort of schematic magic)
  • 2 illuminated push button switches for 2 pumps (supported by 2 normal 120v 3 prong outlets)
  • 1 Auber PID (for Kettle), 1 cheap chinese controller (for HLT) -I already have both and I totally understand that no one will want to guess at how to wire the chinese controller I'll handle that
  • Alarm flasher/buzzer combo to support PID and optionally the cheap controller's alarm function
  • Appropriate fuses to protect PID & chinese controller

Things I don't want
  • DIN rail (I know blasphemy, right?)
  • Circuit breakers in my control panel box
  • Lights that are separate from switches (except for the alarm) -I'd just rather use all illuminated switches
  • A timer
  • key switch


Bits I know I need to complete the build
  • Illuminated 2 position on/off "main' switch
  • 2 pole 40 amp 240v contactor w 120v coil
  • Mushroom, turn to reset E-stop button
  • 3 Way illuminated (center off) switch
  • 2 40amp SSRs
  • 2 heatsinks
  • 2 (more) 2 pole, 40 amp, 240v contactors w 120v coil
  • 2 Green illuminated push button switches
  • 2 "normal" 120v power plugs appropriate for mounting in control panel... (not sure where to get these...)
  • Auber PID (got it already)
  • Cheap chinese simple temp controller (got it already)
  • Combo Alarm buzzer / alarm light


Please help me make it a Merry Christmas! Santa- I'd like a brewery wiring schematic for Christmas so that I can order my last remaining parts and finish my brewery build over vacation! ; )

-The Ebrewsupply 2 pid, 30amp kit is pretty close to what I want but its got a number of complicating items in it that I just don't want and I find their diagrams hard to decipher; I prefer the Homebrewtalk -style schematics.

Adam
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:15 PM   #2
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Oh, it's going to be a sad, sad Christmas this year... -Sorry children, no beer for you this year!


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Old 12-11-2012, 03:45 PM   #3
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I'm on my iPad right now and can't add multiple links easily, but here's one that's close. http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/imag...-e-stop-8a.jpg

If you go into the google search in the site search drop down and search 2 element diagram and 2 element diagram key switch ect., you should come up with lots of P-J's diagrams.

FWI, P-J's e-stop requires a momentary switch as noted in his diagrams. Some people go with the traditional e-stop switch you're talking about with a contactor to cut power. (this is a constantly debated subject here-I went with P-J's, do what you're comfortable with, read about the options and decide) I beleive P-J has also drawn some up with the traditional e-stop if I'm not mistaken as well.

edit: actually in these diagrams he is referencing a twist and release version of the e-stop, the one I used for P-J's e-stop is here http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...inated/GCX3139

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:48 PM   #4
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Here's another one that might be helpful http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/imag...-e-stop-8b.jpg

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Old 12-11-2012, 05:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsguitar View Post
Here's another one that might be helpful http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/imag...-e-stop-8b.jpg
I have no idea where you found that but I'm so glad you did! Thanks a lot!

This is VERY close to what I'm looking for. I actually think I'm just going to try out the single PID, single SSR design like this and I'll just plan the physical layout to make room for dual PID, dual SSR in case I plan to expand in the future.

A couple questions on this one:
1. How important is the PID on/off feature?
2. What are the 1k ohm, 1 watt resistors for before the E-Stop? -Are they required?
3. Why is a fuse required before the master on key switch?
4. Is the switch shown between the PID and the element coils a 2-way switch or a 3-way switch? (I don't fully understand how to read the diagram)


Requested diagram update if anyone's got the skills (I sure don't):
  • Replace separate key power switch and light with illuminated on/off round "twist" switch (not sure what to call it)
  • Replace pump switchs & PID on/off switch with illuminated push button switches
  • Replace separate 3 way switch for element selection and 240v element lights with just a 3 way illuminated switch

-I'm just not sure how wiring the illuminated switches is going to work and that bit is making me a little nervous.


Adam
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:39 PM   #6
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I have one more follow-on question:

If I WERE to want to upgrade to counter-flow HERMS, what would I need to upgrade given the diagram as it is currently?

I'd need a 2nd PID and the ability to kick the pumps on and off so 2 more contactors, right?

Again, I just want to plan the control panel layout to make sure that there's room to make this expansion in the future. A 2nd PID would most certainly be required but what else?

Thanks,
Adam

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Old 12-11-2012, 05:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsguitar View Post
FWI, P-J's e-stop requires a momentary switch as noted in his diagrams. Some people go with the traditional e-stop switch you're talking about with a contactor to cut power. (this is a constantly debated subject here-I went with P-J's, do what you're comfortable with, read about the options and decide) I beleive P-J has also drawn some up with the traditional e-stop if I'm not mistaken as well.

edit: actually in these diagrams he is referencing a twist and release version of the e-stop, the one I used for P-J's e-stop is here
So the e-stop mechanism in this diagram just causes the up-stream GFI breaker to "pop" so the fact that the estop mushroom button is momentary and will turn itself back on doesn't really matter because you still have to manually flip the breaker. -That's the basic premise behind this type of E-stop, right?

I like that E-stop mechanism but I'd still like the added safety of getting a button that stays depressed until I manually pull it back on or twist it. -If the E-stop gets hit I WANT the power off until I'm really sure I want it back on.


Adam
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biertourist View Post
So the e-stop mechanism in this diagram just causes the up-stream GFI breaker to "pop" so the fact that the estop mushroom button is momentary and will turn itself back on doesn't really matter because you still have to manually flip the breaker. -That's the basic premise behind this type of E-stop, right?

I like that E-stop mechanism but I'd still like the added safety of getting a button that stays depressed until I manually pull it back on or twist it. -If the E-stop gets hit I WANT the power off until I'm really sure I want it back on.


Adam
P-J's e-stop functions like the test button on the GFCI. You need the resistors to reduce the current shunted to ground. Very important. If the GFCI trips as it should then there is no power going to the control panel until the breaker is reset.

Like I mentioned before, the other method uses a contactor to break the current in the control panel. As long as the switch is depressed, there is no power beyond the contactor. There is still power up to the contactor. There are diagrams somewhere that show how this can be set up too. I don't have time to dig them up right now but I'd recommend reading up as much as you can before deciding how you want to do things.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:23 PM   #9
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"Bud Nema 4 10.5"x7"x5.5" enclosure"

I used this enclosure for an eBIAB build with a single PID, single contactor, and single SSR. Worked well for this application but way to small for your build. Look for a 12x16 or larger enclosure. Auberins has a metal one with external heat sink a 3 holes for PID or timer for about 126.

If you have a main power input contactor you can use the e-stop and ON/OFF switch to enable/disable this contactor coil.

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Old 12-12-2012, 08:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jCOSbrew View Post
"Bud Nema 4 10.5"x7"x5.5" enclosure"

I used this enclosure for an eBIAB build with a single PID, single contactor, and single SSR. Worked well for this application but way to small for your build. Look for a 12x16 or larger enclosure. Auberins has a metal one with external heat sink a 3 holes for PID or timer for about 126.

If you have a main power input contactor you can use the e-stop and ON/OFF switch to enable/disable this contactor coil.

It will all just BARELY fit; VERY tight but I have some of the components already and was able to mockup a layout that just BARELY fits.

I definitely don't recommend anyone else goes with a box this small for this build but it can be done.


Adam
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