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Old 03-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #21
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This 2 POLE 30A B CURVE breaker is well suited for mounting in the Spa Panel. It is a UL1077 device that functions as needed for this application without issues or problems. Plus - it is DIN rail mountable & for $17.50 it is a great deal.
I like that. So I could add this to my spa panel and run a 30A feed from the 50A GFI already in the panel??


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Old 03-15-2013, 01:46 PM   #22
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I like that. So I could add this to my spa panel and run a 30A feed from the 50A GFI already in the panel??
Exactly. It will work very well.


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Old 03-15-2013, 02:35 PM   #23
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Educate me. I'm not really familiar with UL ratings, so what is the difference between UL489 and UL1077?

I'm trying to google it, but not really finding much.

edit: nevermind. If I change my search to "UL489 vs UL1077" I get some info.

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Old 03-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #24
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Educate me. I'm not really familiar with UL ratings, so what is the difference between UL489 and UL1077?

I'm trying to google it, but not really finding much.

edit: nevermind. If I change my search to "UL489 vs UL1077" I get some info.
There is a comparison in this document, in case anyone else is interested. http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/suppprot1p3p.pdf

Short answer: UL489 for branch circuit protection, UL1077 for supplementary protection.

So for this application can we consider it supplementary protection because we already have a breaker in the main panel providing branch circuit protection? That would make sense to me.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #25
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This would enable using 10awg and 30a rated receptacles and plugs, from the 50a receptacle, to the 50a GFI spa panel with the supplementary 30a breaker, to the control panel, to the heating elements. I would expect that to be significantly less expensive than having to use 6awg and 50a rated receptacles and plugs.

Edit: And easier to work with....

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Old 03-15-2013, 03:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jeffmeh View Post
There is a comparison in this document, in case anyone else is interested. http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/suppprot1p3p.pdf

Short answer: UL489 for branch circuit protection, UL1077 for supplementary protection.

So for this application can we consider it supplementary protection because we already have a breaker in the main panel providing branch circuit protection? That would make sense to me.
That is it exactly.

The breakers mounted within the controller or within the Spa Panel are placed for device protection.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:24 PM   #27
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Here's the most concise thing I found. (Not saying it's correct, but it is clear and concise):

taken from here, emphasis added by me: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66983

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UL489 breakers can be used to meet the requirements of NEC branch circuit protective devices. UL1077 devices can be used as a supplement to a UL489 device. If the circuit wiring leaves the control cabinet it must be protected, somewhere upstream, by a UL489 device. If the circuit does not leave the control cabinet a UL1077 device may be applicable.
In this situation, the wiring is going to leave the cabinet (the spa panel). That requires a UL489 device somewhere upstream. If the main GFCI breaker in the spa panel is a UL489 device (which it should be based on what I was reading), then a UL1077 device is fine to use to drop the current to 30A before leaving the spa panel.

Or did I get that wrong?
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #28
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...
Or did I get that wrong?
You have it right. I do have one diversion on the whole thing though. The power feed to the Spa Panel and the controller terminates with a outlet where the Spa Panel &/or the controller plugs into. With that said, the NEC rules really ended at the outlet.

Just saying...
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:37 PM   #29
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That is it exactly.

The breakers mounted within the controller or within the Spa Panel are placed for device protection.
If your going to drop the wire size from the GFCI panel (50A breaker) it needs to be UL489. As mentioned above UL489 is to meet NEC requirement. NEC requires a 30A overcurrent protector for your 10gauge wire from the modified GFCI, a UL1077 device does NOT satisfy this requirement.

As mentioned UL1077 is supplemental protection, meaning you already have some other protection. If you are dropping to 30A with the supplemental protection you have NO primary protection at 30A. This is like saying you can use UL1077 breakers off your bus bar's in your panel because you have the 100/200A main breaker....

This is a very common mistake and I see it done in industry alot as well (and fails panel certification)

If you want to do it cheap, what about a Fused disconnect they sell for Air conditioners/etc?

EDIT: Yes, NEC ends at outlet but then UL panel specifications are supposed to take over (in industry), but as most people don't usually have access or desire to follow they stick with the NEC. Certaintly you can do whatever you want we are not building industrial panels here. So if you don't follow it thats your choice, but that doesnt change the facts.

EDIT2: Why not something like this, with a small peice of 6AWG wire and a short conduit to connect the two panels. Physically bigger, but cheap. http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202106492?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm0h&R=202106492 Modifying the GFCI panel is also likely a bit of an issue.... You can usually also get single breaker panels/disconnects cheaply as well (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100177812?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm2w&R=100177812), and you could throw a regular 30A breaker in it (still going to be a bit more money though)
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:45 PM   #30
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Whatever...



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