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Old 11-10-2009, 04:04 PM   #31
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CodeRage is on the money exactly what i'm talking about as the contactors holding coil current is very low and no problem for a panic button to handle. Like I mentioned before mounted up front in two locations on your brewery right in your face up front it can be hit, slapped, bumped or banged in a panic and all systems are shut down. I would rather bang a big red panic button than look and flip a TPST toggle switch that alone is not a waterproof hardware store purchased item. You still would need a start button be it mounted on the side of the panic or "E stop" button box out of the way to energize power to your brewing system, the contact coil will not stay energized unless the auxiliary contact is closed to hold the contactors holding coil. This is common in industrial operating equipment as well on switch gear and motor control panels. Like start stop stations we have to work on for a living but not trained for the average home brewer.
You can break any voltage and amperage be it 12KV or 1.2 million volt transmission lines, single or 3 phase 480 volt 80 HP pump motors you name it to open the circuit.

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Old 11-10-2009, 04:26 PM   #32
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The circuit above only requires a button rated for the current need to drive the R1 relay coil.

R1 drives the contactors which carry the large loads.

To eliminate the need to push the start button to power the system up remove the start button and the R1 contact parallel to it. Basically wire the E-stop straight to the R1 coil.

make sense?
You should also mention that this works with a pull to energize "E" panic button and not a red NC stop button that will energize itself instantly after removing pressure on the button so any brewing member doesn't get and install the wrong Red Stop switch button instead.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:28 PM   #33
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Already did.
"If any one is curious as to what a stop/start station and Emergency Stop looks like here you go...

The E stop button is normally closed, make sure it is the variety that need to be twisted or pulled to reset. Once it is pushed, the R1 circuit will open up causing Relay R1's coil to drop out, which will cause contactors CR1 and CR2 to drop out and kill power to their designated loads."

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Old 11-10-2009, 05:49 PM   #34
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I believe this should be added as a sticky for the sake of added safety for not only electric but gas heated brewing systems with electronic spark ignition systems with PID or other types of controllers like a BCS 460 system.

A back feed from a neutral or hot is just as deadly under the right conditions, hell with the shock only and you live to tell about it. Dry hands on a Fluke 87 meter the readings I had were 400K ohms, wet fingers down to 38K ohms and this would be arm to arm across the chest and heart muscle should you be zapped. You can go into a brown out condition, if lucky and fall to the ground breaking this electrical path thru your body you may live another day, hung up your into a blackout and death not too far behind depending on how long your been energized. hell your 90% water with salt in your system, rather good conductor I would add.
Look at how they treat heart attack people in hospital CCU or ICU units, even static electricity can take out a person with a bad heart after a heart attack. Who knows your own hearts condition as high school basket ball kids have dropped dead on the court not knowing they already had a bad heart condition. A minor 120 volt shock to some people could be your last if you have a bad heart and not know it. You can only die once.

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Old 11-10-2009, 11:11 PM   #35
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Already did.
"If any one is curious as to what a stop/start station and Emergency Stop looks like here you go...

The E stop button is normally closed, make sure it is the variety that need to be twisted or pulled to reset. Once it is pushed, the R1 circuit will open up causing Relay R1's coil to drop out, which will cause contactors CR1 and CR2 to drop out and kill power to their designated loads."
How is this different than a simple 2-pole (DPST) switch?
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:05 AM   #36
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How is this different than a simple 2-pole (DPST) switch?
If you are gating all of the power through the DPST switch it is easier to find a contactor or relay to to handle such a large current.

Now I can hear your self ask "Why don't I just drive R1 with a DPST switch?"

Well, you could. The idea is it is easier to hit a mushroom than it is to flip a switch.

Also, you CAN use a momentary stop button instead of a maintained one. When you see a stop/start circuit it usually does have a momentary stop button. This is so the operator can quickly press the momentary button to stop and start the device as needed with out an extra operation like a pulling the mushroom back out to restart it.
The E Stops are wire in series with stop button. This is done so if an emergency occur outside of the view from the operator's station and an E-stop is pressed at one of these locations, the operator can not restart the device until that E-Stop has been reset.

For example, a couple hundred yards down the bottling line of your favorite micro brew, the conveyor that feeds the bottles from the conveyor to the capping machine gets out of sequence and bottles start to spill on the floor. The guy by the capping machine sees this and hits the conveyor E-stop to stop the conveyor. The conveyor operator, oblivious to the problem at the end of the conveyor, is screaming WTF and repeatedly mashes the start button to restart it but it won't work. By this time the shop foreman is chewing peoples' butts to get the problem fixed. Then the E-Stop button is reset.

That stop/start circuit is a staple in industrial controls and was primarily designed to support momentary push buttons. Why momentary buttons? I have no clue, perhaps they are mechanically simpler which makes them less prone to wear and more reliable.
Edit:
I also forgot, you can put start/stop buttons in multiple locations and not have to worry about coordinating the position of multiple maintained switches. Starts are always wired in parallel to each other and stops are ran in series. The stops being normally closed of course, pushing them cause the contacts to open. This is probably the reason why momentaries are preferred.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:24 AM   #37
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If you are gating all of the power through the DPST switch it is easier to find a contactor or relay to to handle such a large current.
I got one that looks just like the one on your wall from Home Depot. Maybe $10. 2-pole 30A, perfect for this.

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I also forgot, you can put start/stop buttons in multiple locations and not have to worry about coordinating the position of multiple maintained switches. Starts are always wired in parallel to each other and stops are ran in series. The stops being normally closed of course, pushing them cause the contacts to open. This is probably the reason why momentaries are preferred.
Now that is a good point. Not a biggie in my setup, but when I go BIG I'll consider the multiple, paralleled, momentary kills.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:04 AM   #38
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Now that is a good point. Not a biggie in my setup, but when I go BIG I'll consider the multiple, in series, momentary kills.
Fixed it for yah

Im not saying that people HAVE to do this. This circuit was brought up in another thread by some one else and wasn't explained. So instead of folks scratching their heads, I put it here so it can be seen and understood.
Whether some of these things are practical for the average guy is on an individual basis. Hell, you can wire nut two wires together for all I care (actually I do, so please don't).

These are industrial control practices meant and have been developed and refined since electricity was introduced to industry. When Brewbeemer talked about a stop/start circuit and I drew one up and it was exactly what he was talking about with no collaboration. Considering he is retired, I am only 5 years into my career, and that he never agrees with any one says something. It's just a standard and proven way of doing things.

I don't have an E-Stop on my system, I used a switch to drive a contactor. My next iteration will probably have one on the control panel.

When I have to design things like this as a rule I have to limit the length of large current carrying conductors. Mainly because they induce a lot of electrical noise and bringing it into a control panel with sensitive instrumentation is a no no, especially if there is no real reason for it being there.

Say you are pulling 20 amps through a wire feeding a heating element. That wire happens to run parallel several inches to the trigger wire for your SSR. At those currents it could easily induce enough voltage to cause the SSR to close without the PID telling it to. The design of the driver circuit in the PID controller will affect how susceptible it is to this but none the less it creates an opportunity for a misfire. I use shielded analog wire to trigger my SSRs as an extra precaution against this.

I don't know if you are trying to tell me I am wrong, want to understand why, or looking for an argument about using a wall switch instead. This is just information put out there for people to draw from if they need to. Im not trying to prove anything.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:09 AM   #39
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OK, I guess if they are NC switches. I was thinking NO, pulling a latching relay coil to GND. Your way is better.

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Old 11-11-2009, 02:13 AM   #40
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I don't know if you are trying to tell me I am wrong, want to understand why, or looking for an argument about using a wall switch instead. This is just information put out there for people to draw from if they need to. Im not trying to prove anything.
I don't want to argue, and I am not telling you you're wrong. Just pointing out that there is a cheap switch easily available that will do the job. I thought that would be useful. Hmmm.

I REALLY don't want to argue.
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