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Old 02-16-2014, 02:02 AM   #161
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One thing that i noticed that you have wrong is the ampacities for wire in used in transmission vs chassis wiring. The numbers you have listed are for transmition wiring so they would be the correct sizing for the cables that go to the panel and to the different elements and pumps. But for chassis wiring you can use smaller wire.

#14 THHN copper wire is good for up to 25 Amps
#12 THHN copper wire is good for up to 30 Amps
#10 THHN copper wire is good for up to 40 Amps

These ratings come from The Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge. This data is also in NEC Table 310-16.

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Old 02-16-2014, 02:10 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyirishman34 View Post
One thing that i noticed that you have wrong is the ampacities for wire in used in transmission vs chassis wiring. The numbers you have listed are for transmition wiring so they would be the correct sizing for the cables that go to the panel and to the different elements and pumps. But for chassis wiring you can use smaller wire.

#14 THHN copper wire is good for up to 25 Amps
#12 THHN copper wire is good for up to 30 Amps
#10 THHN copper wire is good for up to 40 Amps

These ratings come from The Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge. This data is also in NEC Table 310-16.
glad you found those

now go to the National Electrical Code and find out all the rules and regulations for installing those wire sizes
how to derate, etc

plus if you were to look in the notes of table 310,16 you will see that 14 gauge wire can only be used for 15 amps, 12 gauge for 20 amps and 10 gauge for 30 amps, no mater what they are rated for.

and those figures are just a start, we can only use 80% of allowable rating
we figure the fill of the box in devices and wires, how the wires are installed and derate them further

it is not as easy as just reading a table.
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:33 AM   #163
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Why is it so hard for people to understand that NEC table 310.16 only applies to wire in conduit, raceways, cables (romex, BX) and direct bury. NEC Table 310.15 is the chart that is used for chassis wiring.

Refers to the maximum constant load on a circuit. So even though you can run a 7200w element on a 30a 240v circuit that max constant load allowed is 5760w.

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Old 02-16-2014, 02:53 AM   #164
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BTW, I've had two different times when the wiring in my panel smoked. I have experience in these matters! (be careful to screw fastons down tight, and if you crimp the fastons onto wire, never crimp onto solid core wire, and make sure your crimps are tight).

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Old 02-16-2014, 03:02 AM   #165
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For this type of wiring i would only use a ratcheting type wire crimper. You can get a really decent one for about $20 on amazon or ebay.

Also I would only use THHN stranded wire in a chassis wiring application. Solid core wire is really only good for house wiring.

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Old 02-23-2014, 06:04 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyirishman34 View Post
Why is it so hard for people to understand that NEC table 310.16 only applies to wire in conduit, raceways, cables (romex, BX) and direct bury. NEC Table 310.15 is the chart that is used for chassis wiring.

Refers to the maximum constant load on a circuit. So even though you can run a 7200w element on a 30a 240v circuit that max constant load allowed is 5760w.
What year code book are you referencing? In the 2011 code 310.15(B)(16) is the old 310.16.... Are you referring to TABLE 310.15(B)(17) (formerly Table 310.17) Allowable Ampacities of Single-Insulated Conductors Rated Up to and Includluding 2000 Volts in Free Air, Based on Ambient Temperature of 86*F? If so there's a note to Refer to 240.4(D) for condutor overcurrent protection limitations For #14, #12 and #10.

240.4(D) shows the 18 being fused at 7amps, #16 at 10amps, #14 at 15amps, #12 at 20amps and #10 at 30amps.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:46 PM   #167
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This may have been brought up, but if one were to follow code/industry standards in building their control panel, wouldn't the proper codes/standards be: NEC Article 409 (Industrial Control Panels) and UL508A (Standard for Industrial Control Panels). NEC Article 300.1(B) leads me to believe that Article 300 would not apply to the internals of the control panel.



I don't have access to UL508A, but it would be intersting to see what their ampacity tables list, conductor sizing and circuit protection.

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Old 03-01-2014, 12:02 AM   #168
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This may have been brought up, but if one were to follow code/industry standards in building their control panel, wouldn't the proper codes/standards be: NEC Article 409 (Industrial Control Panels) and UL508A (Standard for Industrial Control Panels). NEC Article 300.1(B) leads me to believe that Article 300 would not apply to the internals of the control panel.



I don't have access to UL508A, but it would be intersting to see what their ampacity tables list, conductor sizing and circuit protection.
Thanks for pointing that out... I'll have to read through that this weekend but glancing through I did notice that under "409.21 Overcurrent Protection (A) General. Industrial control panels shall be provided with overcurrent protection in accordance with Parts 1, 2, and 4 of Article 240"... good find... As far as UL508A goes I would have to say that it's not relevant to the general public since our control panels aren't going to be UL listed but I could be wrong.
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Old 03-01-2014, 02:22 AM   #169
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As far as UL508A goes I would have to say that it's not relevant to the general public since our control panels aren't going to be UL listed but I could be wrong.
Correct, no one building their own panel is going to go for a UL listing, but as far as following good industry standards and practices I would think it would be very good place to look if one had questions on what size wire to use, how to protect it and control circuit design.

I did find a couple of guides that quote sections of the standard:

Schneider Control Panel Technical Guide
Eaton Control Panel Design Guide

So, per the above guides it looks like the UL Standard gives the following ampacities: #14 = 15A, #12 = 20A and #10 = 30A.
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Old 03-04-2014, 03:30 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyirishman34 View Post
Why is it so hard for people to understand that NEC table 310.16 only applies to wire in conduit, raceways, cables (romex, BX) and direct bury. NEC Table 310.15 is the chart that is used for chassis wiring.
If you are referring to the Single Conductor Free Air Table 310.15(B)(17) (formerly Table 310.17) then I think the problem may be that the NEC does not define what "Free Air" means. In my opinion this table means that you have a single conductor cable that has no impediments to the air flow around it. Once you have multi-conductors, more cables, conduit, dirt, enclosure, etc. then you are no longer in Free Air, and the table does not apply. It's those impediments that could ultimately affect the cooling around the cable and thus it's ampacity rating. Hence the need for two tables, with the Free Air table having higher ampacity listings.
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