Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > Electric Question
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2010, 03:29 AM   #21
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMonti View Post
So, is that linear?

What I mean is, will it still raise 100 degrees in about 30 mins if the starting temp is 50 degree? It would seem the vessel (keg) would suck more heat out and cause longer heating times.

I am only asking cause I am a weldor. I know nothing of this. My TIG torch heats things up REAL fast.
You are correct... Ambient temperature, wind, insulation and other variables all will play into the time it takes to heat. In reality, I think the 30 minute time is pretty much in a perfect environment.

Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 03:32 AM   #22
GreenMonti
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,014
Liked 8 Times on 8 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio-Ed View Post
You are correct... Ambient temperature, wind, insulation and other variables all will play into the time it takes to heat. In reality, I think the 30 minute time is pretty much in a perfect environment.

Ed

Thank you.

Too much math for me. I need a mouth guard to do that stuff.
__________________
GreenMonti is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 03:33 AM   #23
tpgsr
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 59
Default

Here are some tips just from reading through.

I would be afraid of using the 50A breaker if you are going to have more than one element on at a time. I am personally using 2 30A 240 GFCI breakers so that each element is on it's own circuit. You mentioned 3 pole selector switch, and yes those are important but you will need a contactor or power relay behind it. If you look at my build thread, you will see that I have 2 open power relays (one for each heater) and numerous controls that "pull in the contacts" to power the elements.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims...vanced-154390/

I have made extensive use of terminal blocks, relays, buttons etc... to achieve the results that I want (Ie heater 1 on, pump 2 on; rims on pump 1 on; etc...) You will want to look into a temp controller of some sort, or a PLC as you mentioned to control the elements. I only have one controller at the moment as they are $$$ but two are in the plans. If you can afford to get two, or buy a cheaper component then that will be even better as you can control your RIMS and your HLT.

Back to the electrical side of things, I know that you only want one cord, but I am not sure if it is really worth it. 60A plugs are outrageously expensive, and you are going to have to fuse out each element and create 30A branch circuits in the panel anyhow. That means a larger panel and again more $$.

Currently I have a pile of terminal blocks, some din rail, some push buttons and a few other things that I can give you if you want. Take a look at my build and see if you want something like that. If you do, then I can certainly help you along and get you the things that you need at distributor cost or below. You would just have to pay for shipping as they would kill me if I gave things away then shipped it for free.

__________________
tpgsr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 03:46 AM   #24
Fingers
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Fingers's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lac du Bonnet, Manitoba
Posts: 4,212
Liked 24 Times on 22 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budzu View Post
I put the 60 amp seimens gfi right into a 100 amp seimens breaker panel. From that breaker I ran 6/3 copper plus ground to a 60 amp outlet. It will provide plenty of power for 2 5500 watt elements plus a good bit of 120v stuff (nothing high amperage, just 2 pumps, bcs, and a couple contactors).
Any issues with the 240VAC GFCI breaker tripping when current flows in the neutral of the 120VAC circuits? I would think that it would see neutral current as a fault since the 240VAC only wants to see current in the two hot legs.
__________________
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
Fingers is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 03:55 AM   #25
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
CodeRage's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,254
Liked 32 Times on 17 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Not too shabby for a first cut.

  • First, I would advise against running high current for a switch. The biggest reason is high current switches are $$$. Use some low current switches, like those from automationdirect.com to drive a coil on a contactor. Auber has some in expensive 40 amp ones. Use the contacts on the contactor to carry the load. You will need one for Hand and one for Auto on each one. As well as two for the large element selector.
  • For the auto control some say a DSSR is required to switch both legs. In this situation I agree. Run both legs through a DSSR for the 240v element auto control.
  • Likewise, run both of the Hand power legs through both contacts of the Hand contactor.
  • For small loads, like the pumps you can use small mechanical relays.
  • E-STOP is recommended.

To save a little cash and room you can ommit the element selector contactors by gating control power through the switch.

Here is a general explanation of switches with contact blocks.

There are 2 Main categories of switches, Push Buttons and Selectors.
Push Buttons
Are exactly what the name implies, you push the button to actuate it.
Push Buttons are divided into 2 main modes of actuation.
Momentary - Push the button down the button turns on, remove your finger and the button returns to off.
Push On/Push Off - Push the button down and it turns on, push it again it turns off.

Selector Switches
Selector switches are multi position switches, typically 2 or 3 positions. There are two different main modes of actuation for selectors as well.
Return To - Return to means the switch will return to a standard position when released. Two position switches either Return To Right (RTR) or Return To Left (RTL). Three position switches are usually Return To Center (RTC)
Maintained - A selector switch with a maintain function will stay in the position they were last placed.

Switch Actuation
A panel switch itself does not control electricity, it is a mechanical device. When a push button is in the 'on' position a piece of plastic protrudes from the bottom, when the switch is in the off position it retracts. Two position selector have one mechanical actuator as well. When the switch is in one position the actuator sticks out and retracts in the other position. Three position selectors have two actuators, one for the left hand position, the other for the right hand switch position. When a three position switch is in the center, bother actuators are retracted.

Contact Blocks
The actuators on a switch interact with contact blocks that are attached to the back of the switch with screws. Each contact block has 2 wire terminals, one on each side of the contact. There are 2 types of contacts blocks
Normally Open (NO) - When the actuator is retracted the contact in the block is open, not allowing electricity to flow. When the switch actuator is extended it causes the contact block to close allowing electricity to pass.
Normally Closed (NC) - These work directly opposite of a NO contact. When the actuator is retracted, the contact is closed allowing current to pass. When the actuator extends it causes the contact to open, prohibiting the flow of current.

Contact blocks are stackable! you can screw another contact block on top of another of any variety. The contact blocks have their own spring loaded actuator to pass on the position of the switch actuator below it. This allows for control of multiple circuits using the same switch.

How do you tell if a three position switch is in the center position? Easy! Put two NC contact blocks on both sides of the switch and wire them in series (In one, connect the other side to the other block, and out the second block). When the switch is in the center position both actuators are retracted closing both NC contacts allowing current to pass.

So, starting with the element selector switch. Use a 2 position maintained selector. Install two NO blocks and two NC blocks. Connect 1 NO and 1 NC to your 110v for relay control and connect 1 NO and 1 NC to the PID output. You can run one wire for each and use a jumper to connect the 110 and PID out to the second blocks.

For element 1 you will install 2 NO blocks, one on each side of a three position maintained selector. On the Hand (Manual On) block connect one side to the NC contact on the selector switch with 110 on it. then run the other side to the coil of your Hand contactor. Next run a wire from the other NC contact on the element selector switch connected to the PID output to the Auto NO contact of the element 1 switch. Then run the other side to the control signal to the DSSR.

For element 2 you will install 2 NO blocks, one on each side of a three position maintained selector. On the Hand (Manual On) block connect one side to the NO contact on the element selector switch with 110 on it. then run the other side to the coil of your Hand contactor. Next run a wire from the other NO contact on the element selector switch connected to the PID output to the Auto NO contact of the element 1 switch. Then run the other side to the control signal to the DSSR.

When implementing an E-Stop button, you put it in front of ALL of the other control buttons and switches. So if the E-stop is pressed, there is no power provided to any of the switches, which means they cannot turn on their corresponding relays, SSRs, and contactors. The end result is everything turns off! E-stops fall into the push button category btw, but they are usually a push on/pull off OR push on/twist off.

Wow.. wasn't expecting this to turn into a dissertation Sorry
__________________
Brutus 20e build | Electrical Primer for Brewers | Auber SYL-2362A2 PID Install & Config
So as I am walking out the door this morning I think to my self:
"self, going to work on Monday is like knowing you're going to get kicked in the nuts. You just don't know when or by who"
CodeRage is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 03:57 AM   #26
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
CodeRage's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,254
Liked 32 Times on 17 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingers View Post
Any issues with the 240VAC GFCI breaker tripping when current flows in the neutral of the 120VAC circuits? I would think that it would see neutral current as a fault since the 240VAC only wants to see current in the two hot legs.
Most gfci breakers also monitor the neutral so you can split the legs into 110VAC circuits. Appliances like hot tubs require both 240 and 110 so instead of using 2 circuits they made a gfci smart enough to monitor current between all 3.
__________________
Brutus 20e build | Electrical Primer for Brewers | Auber SYL-2362A2 PID Install & Config
So as I am walking out the door this morning I think to my self:
"self, going to work on Monday is like knowing you're going to get kicked in the nuts. You just don't know when or by who"
CodeRage is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 04:01 AM   #27
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpgsr View Post
Here are some tips just from reading through.

I would be afraid of using the 50A breaker if you are going to have more than one element on at a time. I am personally using 2 30A 240 GFCI breakers so that each element is on it's own circuit. You mentioned 3 pole selector switch, and yes those are important but you will need a contactor or power relay behind it. If you look at my build thread, you will see that I have 2 open power relays (one for each heater) and numerous controls that "pull in the contacts" to power the elements.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims...vanced-154390/

I have made extensive use of terminal blocks, relays, buttons etc... to achieve the results that I want (Ie heater 1 on, pump 2 on; rims on pump 1 on; etc...) You will want to look into a temp controller of some sort, or a PLC as you mentioned to control the elements. I only have one controller at the moment as they are $$$ but two are in the plans. If you can afford to get two, or buy a cheaper component then that will be even better as you can control your RIMS and your HLT.

Back to the electrical side of things, I know that you only want one cord, but I am not sure if it is really worth it. 60A plugs are outrageously expensive, and you are going to have to fuse out each element and create 30A branch circuits in the panel anyhow. That means a larger panel and again more $$.

Currently I have a pile of terminal blocks, some din rail, some push buttons and a few other things that I can give you if you want. Take a look at my build and see if you want something like that. If you do, then I can certainly help you along and get you the things that you need at distributor cost or below. You would just have to pay for shipping as they would kill me if I gave things away then shipped it for free.
Thanks! I will take a close look at your build. Do you have a drawing?

In the drawing, I have a single pole double throw switch in front of the selectors for the 5500 watt elements meaning only one will be active at a time. So, I can run both pumps, the 1500 watt RIMs heater and EITHER the HLT or BK. I should be well under 50 amps. Originally I wanted it all... then saw pricing on 60amp gear and choked.

I have a PID I've used with my RIMS heater and just got a BCS-460 which looks very promising. I'm just wanting to make sure it's the right thing before I build around it.

Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 04:01 AM   #28
tpgsr
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 59
Default

Great post CodeRage, it is like a mini lesson on industrial controls.

I will have to disagree with the SSR though. It seems everyone on here is quick to run to them, and I have two of them in my panel for my pumps (just as a space issue as the yare 1/4" thick and mount on din rail). I still have to give it up to the larger bulkier NEMA components like the open style power relay. It is right around the same price, even cheaper sometimes, does not need a heat sink, and will last 10x as long with constant switching. Even if it breaks, you can typically repair the broken contact or replace the coil.

Either way he decides to go, you still win in this thread with an awsome post for anyone that is trying real hard to figure out what all of the buttons and switches actually do!

__________________
tpgsr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 04:14 AM   #29
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeRage View Post
Not too shabby for a first cut.


Wow.. wasn't expecting this to turn into a dissertation Sorry
WOW... THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE!!! It will take me a bit of time to read through and I'm sure even more to understand

I actually have AutomationDirect and digikey catalogs (I requested them when I started down this path) and the switches confuse the bejesus out of me. I know I need contactors or relays, but the lists just go on and on... I will read through the responses and try again to get my head around it.

Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2010, 04:16 AM   #30
Ohio-Ed
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Ohio-Ed's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,072
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingers View Post
Any issues with the 240VAC GFCI breaker tripping when current flows in the neutral of the 120VAC circuits? I would think that it would see neutral current as a fault since the 240VAC only wants to see current in the two hot legs.
The GFCI I have is labeled 120/240... should be no problem.

Ed
__________________
Ohio-Ed is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another electric kettle question mikeal Kettles, Mash Tuns, & Hot Liquor Tanks 4 12-12-2009 03:10 PM
Another Electric Question BradN Brew Stands 5 05-07-2009 02:45 AM
Another Electric HLT Question... Beer_Maker Kettles, Mash Tuns, & Hot Liquor Tanks 4 03-22-2009 06:59 PM
another electric HLT question kcinpdx Equipment/Sanitation 3 01-29-2009 09:07 PM
electric brewing question stevehaun Equipment/Sanitation 4 12-27-2008 09:54 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS