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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > Economical and correct receptacles-plugs for 240V 50A
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:34 PM   #21
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Wrong, wrong, wrong. You show me your electrician's certification, and quote me the code in the NEC, and THEN you can tell me my business. What you are going to do, if I am picturing it correctly, is indeed illegal. You can NOT use a neutral for a ground, or a ground for a neutral.

I am not trying to flame here, I am also not trying to tell you your business.. But I have a pretty good idea how electricity works, both in the real world and in the theoretical one...


If you are the one saying 'Wrong, wrong, wrong', shouldn't you be supplying the NEC codes? I'm not an electrician, I am, however, an electrical Engineer and feel the statement I supplied above is 100% correct....

Please explain what is incorrect about my statement you quoted above... Again, I feel it is 100% correct...


Now, if we can get back on topic, what sort of economical connectors are people using to do 40-50A service to their control box?
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:49 PM   #22
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ure_of_the_NEC

"The NEC also permits grounding-type receptacles in nongrounded wiring protected by a GFCI."
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:15 AM   #23
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not illegal... is there a ground from the pole to your service panel? No... just neutral... there is a ground rod near the service panel with relatively MUCH smaller wire than your service wiring, and it is connected DIRECTLY to the Neutral in the panel.. of every house in America... to make my panel legal, I think I would just have to run a small 8-10-12ga? wire to a house ground..

-mike

Without re-reading everything in the thread ( so going a bit by memory here)
You are running a 6-3 to your panel (no ground) and then running a single conductor (#8 is big enough- NEC 250.122) to a "house ground". What house ground? The only acceptable ground is in the service panel. (NEC 250)You can't just go to a water pipe, because it is not necessarily a continuous path. Same with gas piping. (also 250) You also can't run a single conductor that small by itself. It would need to be in a conduit to protect it from damage. (230.50)As far as using a GFCI without a ground, that is for existing circuits only, not for new installations. (406.3d)

I'm done. Time to join Walker for that beer.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:43 AM   #24
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Agreed, if we treat this as a sub-panel then yes, there needs to be a separate ground wire run and it must not be bonded to the neutral in the sub-panel. I say 'if', because I guess this is debatable, because it will be a plug in movable box, , not be a hard wired, permanently mounted panel.

I am treating this more like a device, a device with built in GFCI.. I guess UL is more appropriate than NEC, LOL...


It is not really the 6/3 versus 6/4 or 6/3 with Ground, it is the cost of connectors going from $30-$50 to several hundred dollars for a nice recessed male receptacle with 4 connectors rated for 50A...

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Old 03-02-2011, 12:47 AM   #25
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What's the difference between the neutral and the ground wire in a 240VAC ckt? Besides color? Assume there are no 120VAC appliances.

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Old 03-02-2011, 12:52 AM   #26
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Bernie Brewer -

I will thank you for the kickstart of my brain for a solution that was more *acceptable*, yet can use economical parts..

I may do a L5-20 or just a 5-15 for the 120V aspect, then have the 6/3 with no Neutral, just ground that *only* goes to the 220V SSRs/Elements... (yes, I even could do two, one L6-30 with just 8Ga+gnd for each 23A load to be extra safe! )

This cord would not be required when gas brewing, a separate SSR could control the 300k Btu natural Gas Valve... I hope you aren't a gas plumber also! ;-)

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Old 03-02-2011, 12:59 AM   #27
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What's the difference between the neutral and the ground wire in a 240VAC ckt? Besides color? Assume there are no 120VAC appliances.
passedpawn - with no 120V appliances, you could somewhat treat the other lead as a ground as it connects to ground in the Main panel and is not carrying current... This may not be allowed by code for the spec of the connector you are using... By definition, ground should not carry current... If it carries current, there is a fault (Ground Fault) or it is not ground, but a Neutral
(this is common in stoves and dryers, but new rules say they must all be 4-wire now I think)

simple, eh? if we were in Europe, this would not be an issue... people would all have 240 (and be damn respectful of it!)

-mike
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:25 PM   #28
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What's the difference between the neutral and the ground wire in a 240VAC ckt? Besides color? Assume there are no 120VAC appliances.
I think I have a more correct answer..
1 - according to codes and regulations, the differences are the color and the pin and/or the connector it goes in and out of, and possibly the gauge (real ground might be allowed to be smaller). In the below pic of a NEMA 14-50, if it is connected to the G or the W determines if it is Ground or Neutral.



2 - according to an electron, or a color-blind person who has never heard of codes and does not have access to them, there is no stinking difference!

3 - the difference is 'intended use of the conductor'

-mike
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:42 PM   #29
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check these out. I've never heard of "California Standard" but here are recessed male power inlets rated for 240v/50a:

http://www.stayonline.com/california-standard-50-amp-inlets.aspx

(not "economical" at $65 or so, but....)
Thanks!
This info made me realize that option when I saw one reference site that specifically stated that that the replacement of L14-50 is the 'california standard' http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-locking.aspx (scroll down to '3-Pole, 4-Wire Grounding' then the L14-50 item.)

Searching eBay for CS6375 gives a $50 'Inlet' connector that does 50A and keeps everybody happy..
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:15 PM   #30
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For practically the same money, you might want to look at 6353EL-B inlet and 6364CRN cordset female connector plug. The inlet has an additional cover strain relief threads to take it off the connectors.

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