Electric Brewing Supply 30A BCS Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Electric Brewing > Does turning off the contactor cause the PID to adjust itself?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-16-2013, 10:53 PM   #11
biertourist
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 612
Liked 55 Times on 47 Posts
Likes Given: 25

Default

Is he maybe talking about the "fuzzy logic" fine tuning feature of the Auber units?


Adam

__________________
biertourist is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-16-2013, 11:42 PM   #12
Robhansen
Hoghead Brewing
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Monroe City, IN
Posts: 29
Default

Thanks for all the input on this! I thought I'd seen that the PID continues to learn. We'll have to wait and find out what Auber says!

__________________
Robhansen is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 05:12 AM   #13
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,113
Liked 1020 Times on 680 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

I've read the auber instructions 20 times and I never fully understood what they mean about fuzzy logic. It's really vague and to be honest, if you're going to design a unit that operates differently than the industry standard PID functions, you should explain it in more than one paragraph.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 10:49 AM   #14
Robhansen
Hoghead Brewing
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Monroe City, IN
Posts: 29
Default

Actually, I'm using the 2362 controller. I didn't think it used "fuzzy logic". Anyway, I registered on Auber's forum to ask them. Waiting on them to complete registering. I do thank this board for all the knowledge I've gathered throughout my build!

__________________
Robhansen is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 08:18 PM   #15
jeffmeh
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jeffmeh's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,851
Liked 140 Times on 121 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

I received an answer back from Auber, and subsequently called them to confirm. In summary, the parameters will not change unless you run an autotune or manually change them. I have posted my question and Auber's answer below.

------------------------------------

Here's a question regarding the SYL-2352 that came up on homebrewtalk.com,
and I suspect you can answer it definitively.

Does the PID "learn" at all times, or only when running autotune? I.e.,
will the parameters change just from running, or only through an autotune or
through changing them manually? Are there any difference here between your
PIDs, for those that are well-suited for brewing?

The background here is that for safety one may put a DPST mechanical relay
between the SSR and the heating element (and between the other 240v hot leg
and the element), so when switched off there is certainty that the element
is off. In that mode, if the PID is "learning," it is "learning" bad
information as the temperature will not rise in response to its signals.

Many thanks.
-------------------------------------------

Here's the answer I received through email:

---------------------------------------------
Hello Jeff,
The PID only learn when autotune. It will set the parameter during autotune only unless you manually change it. So, it will not learning bad by idling. It you turn on the output after controller has been idled for a while, the output may be very high for a short period of time. But the fuzzy logic algorithm should be able to make quick adjustment. If that dose not solve the problem, you can turn off the controller and start it again to reset all the output due to integral windup.
---------------------------------------------

__________________
jeffmeh is offline
stlbeer Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 09:11 PM   #16
BadNewsBrewery
Basement Brewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
BadNewsBrewery's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 1,136
Liked 115 Times on 94 Posts
Likes Given: 53

Default

Knowing is half the battle! G.I. Joe!!!!

__________________
Building a Bad News Brewery - eHERMS

2014:
5gal Scottish Wee Heavy
5gal Saison
15gal American Pale Ale
20gal Belgian Wit
10gal Oktoberfest
10gal Southern Pecan Ale

Keg 1: Apfelwein
Keg 2: Oktoberfest
Keg 3: American Pale Ale
Fermenting: Southern Pecan
On Deck: Winter Spice Ale
BadNewsBrewery is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 12:30 AM   #17
Robhansen
Hoghead Brewing
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Monroe City, IN
Posts: 29
Default

Thanks for getting the research done on that! I had myself convinced that I would have to back the set point down every time I was done with a heater.

__________________
Robhansen is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 01:43 AM   #18
itsme6582
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 813
Liked 22 Times on 20 Posts
Likes Given: 23

Default

I think what Kal was alluding to was a sort of break in period. A brand new PID might autotune to different values than a PID that has been used heavily. This is not really a function of the PID but more of the system achieving repeatable state. Think about it. Your metal is all shiny and new. The wires are freshly soldered. There's never been any consistent amount of current running through them. Your equipment is not exactly the same on the first brew as it is after 10 brew days. It's probably all insignificant but the PID could observe the changes and end up with slightly different settings.

If you look at the work Kal has done, you cannot deny he is a stickler for details. This is another detail.

__________________
itsme6582 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 03:38 AM   #19
jeffmeh
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jeffmeh's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,851
Liked 140 Times on 121 Posts
Likes Given: 18

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robhansen View Post
Thanks for getting the research done on that! I had myself convinced that I would have to back the set point down every time I was done with a heater.
No problem. Is there a simple way to set the PID not to heat other than backing the setpoint down? Manual mode at 0%? Any other method?

It's still probably not a great idea to have the PID trying to raise temp with the element off BEFORE you are really going to heat, given the integral windup. Perhaps it would overshoot, perhaps not. In any event, no parameters will change, and a reset cures all.
__________________
jeffmeh is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 11:29 AM   #20
BadNewsBrewery
Basement Brewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
BadNewsBrewery's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 1,136
Liked 115 Times on 94 Posts
Likes Given: 53

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsme6582 View Post
I think what Kal was alluding to was a sort of break in period. ... If you look at the work Kal has done, you cannot deny he is a stickler for details. This is another detail.
First, I will agree 100% that what Kal has done for e-Brewing is miles beyond what anyone could possibly expect. I know I wouldn't have even thought of doing my setup had it not been for his website, and I would have spent a LOT more time asking stupid questions over and over if I didn't have his site to go back to.

That being said, no man is above making mistakes. I think the below quote from his website is, in fact, wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal's Website
The first few times you brew the Hot Liquor Tank temperature may rise higher or drop lower than the temperature you set. This is normal. The Hot Liquor Tank PID will automatically learn the heating and cooling characteristics of your setup and tune itself over time to provide more precise temperature control.
By reading that, I thought that if I just left my PID alone, it would learn the setup over time. I could force the learning by using Auto-Tune, but it wasn't a required step as the PID would work it all out. We now know that this is not true, per Auber.

No ding on Kal - like I said, he's the outright Godfather of electric brewing. One bit of misinformation out of the veritable tomes he has written... that's not a bad average.
__________________
Building a Bad News Brewery - eHERMS

2014:
5gal Scottish Wee Heavy
5gal Saison
15gal American Pale Ale
20gal Belgian Wit
10gal Oktoberfest
10gal Southern Pecan Ale

Keg 1: Apfelwein
Keg 2: Oktoberfest
Keg 3: American Pale Ale
Fermenting: Southern Pecan
On Deck: Winter Spice Ale
BadNewsBrewery is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SSR, Contactor? both? help me K.I.S.S mavrick1903 Electric Brewing 19 02-13-2013 05:57 AM
One contactor for two elements? sflegacy Electric Brewing 10 12-24-2012 02:37 PM
SSR then Contactor or Contactor then SSR? biertourist Electric Brewing 18 12-12-2012 03:23 PM
What value does a contactor add? Cromwell Electric Brewing 8 09-27-2012 07:43 PM
Checking on a Contactor. Skodi Electric Brewing 4 09-01-2012 11:56 PM