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Old 07-23-2011, 10:59 PM   #1
O'Haggerty
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Default Controller Question for P-J

Or anyone who can give a solid answer to the following questions...

This thread was extremely helpful... http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/suggestions-controller-249400/index4.html

but the parts list excel file has multiple extra/unneeded options that I'm having trouble sorting through.

For starters,
- My build is for a 220v/30amp/3 wire power source run through a 50A GFCI spa panel into a controller box.

- The brewery electrical requirements consist of:
2x 5500W elements (HLT + BK, only running 1 element at a time)
2x 120v march pumps (running simultaneously at times)

- My controller box consists of:
auber 1/16 din controller project box
auber PID SYL-2352
auber 40A ssr + heatsink

I am building my control box based off this wiring schematic from PJ:



I have ordered the following with no issues:
- PID
- Project box
- 40A ssr + sink
- weldless RTD probe +QD mount
- yellow EPO switch
- 4 120v indicator LEDs (2 red for "element on", 2 blue for "pump on")


Ok finally my issues... the switches. You linked in the above thread that a 3PDT Toggle will be sufficient to switch/power either element plus feed the corresponding indicator light.

1) The specs say 25A@120V... 9A@240V... 9a isnt enough to power the element at 240v... am I just misunderstanding the amperage/leg or what? Can you confirm a link for the switch I need to order to accomplish this?

2) Also... according to the diagram the SSR only intersects one of the 120v legs... so if the PID/SSR is off, isn't the element still getting 120v from the other leg?

3) I want indicator lights for "pump on" for each of the pump toggles... which switch do I need for that action?

4) The connector to the element in the diagram is only 3 prong... wasn't the point to create 4 wire output? (through addition of an equipment ground/GFCI) Or do the elements just not receive a neutral?

I'm obviously no electrical expert but I'm very handy and feel comfortable taking on this project. I'll post any more questions that arise before powering anything up. Thanks for your help!

- Aj



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Old 07-24-2011, 08:33 PM   #2
Double-R
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Quote:
I'm obviously no electrical expert but I'm very handy and feel comfortable taking on this project.
I....Like you
Had a bunch of questions.. And P-J, Helped and answered all..
By PM...E-mails and a couple of Hour long phone calls..
So until he jumps in here...
P-J drew a diagram for me , "AND I FOLLOWED IT TO THE TEE"
Quote:
I want indicator lights for "pump on" for each of the pump toggles... which switch do I need for that action?
The switches #2,3 and 4 are illuminated switch.. If you use those.just pick color,push in it lights. I have and use them.

Quote:
1) The specs say 25A@120V... 9A@240V... 9a isnt enough to power the element at 240v... am I just misunderstanding the amperage/leg or what? Can you confirm a link for the switch I need to order to accomplish this?
Thats a... NKK Mfr. Model #S33
I have and use that one

Quote:
Also... according to the diagram the SSR only intersects one of the 120v legs... so if the PID/SSR is off, isn't the element still getting 120v from the other leg?
Looks wierd right... Stared at that for two weeks .
When you push the toggle to one side left/right ,
The SSR uses one leg and Second leg is straight from bus/terminal block.

Dont know if this helps...




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Old 07-25-2011, 02:28 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by O'Haggerty View Post
2) Also... according to the diagram the SSR only intersects one of the 120v legs... so if the PID/SSR is off, isn't the element still getting 120v from the other leg?
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Haggerty View Post
4) The connector to the element in the diagram is only 3 prong... wasn't the point to create 4 wire output? (through addition of an equipment ground/GFCI) Or do the elements just not receive a neutral?
The 240v element does not use a neutral wire. Neutral wires are only for 120v devices. You said you're using a 220v 3 wire power source. A 3 wire source is 2 hot wires and a ground, no neutral. If that is true than you won't be able to run your pumps. The diagram you posted shows a 4 wire power source.
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:30 PM   #4
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The power source is converted to 4 wire 240 through the spa panel GFCI providing an equipment ground.... as I understand it anyway.

Thanks for the replies so far!

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Old 07-26-2011, 12:43 AM   #5
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O'Haggerty,

Please give me a couple of days to provide (draw) a new diagram for you so that the whole thing is a little easier to follow. I'll also provide the parts sources.

Have you ordered the switch #1 yet? If not I have a cheaper solution usind a DP-Center Off-DT unit instead of the 3 pole.

Also with switches 2 - 4 there is a switch with built in indicator lights as shown if you want to go that route.

P-J

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Old 07-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Haggerty View Post
Or anyone who can give a solid answer to the following questions...
...
I have ordered the following with no issues:
- PID
- Project box
- 40A ssr + sink
- weldless RTD probe +QD mount
- yellow EPO switch
- 4 120v indicator LEDs (2 red for "element on", 2 blue for "pump on")

Ok finally my issues... the switches. You linked in the above thread that a 3PDT Toggle will be sufficient to switch/power either element plus feed the corresponding indicator light.

1) The specs say 25A@120V... 9A@240V... 9a isnt enough to power the element at 240v... am I just misunderstanding the amperage/leg or what? Can you confirm a link for the switch I need to order to accomplish this?
The switch is rated with reference to its case. It is switching 2 120V lines & in the configuration illustrated each switch contact will only have 120V with reference to the case (ground) as well as 120V across the contact when it is open. It's rating of 25A is appropriate in this situation.

Quote:
2) Also... according to the diagram the SSR only intersects one of the 120v legs... so if the PID/SSR is off, isn't the element still getting 120v from the other leg?
It would appear so, however, there is no path for the electricity to flow.

Quote:
3) I want indicator lights for "pump on" for each of the pump toggles... which switch do I need for that action?
The new diagram will illustrate that for you. (Although I'm presenting an illuminated push button switch, the wiring for an indicator light would be the same.)

Quote:
4) The connector to the element in the diagram is only 3 prong... wasn't the point to create 4 wire output? (through addition of an equipment ground/GFCI) Or do the elements just not receive a neutral?
A 240V element is wired with 240V (2 120V phases) and equipment ground. The neutral in not used or wired to the element.

Quote:
I'm obviously no electrical expert but I'm very handy and feel comfortable taking on this project. I'll post any more questions that arise before powering anything up. Thanks for your help!
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-J View Post
Please give me a couple of days to provide (draw) a new diagram for you so that the whole thing is a little easier to follow. I'll also provide the parts sources.

Have you ordered the switch #1 yet? If not I have a cheaper solution usind a DP-Center Off-DT unit instead of the 3 pole.

Also with switches 2 - 4 there is a switch with built in indicator lights as shown if you want to go that route.
Ok. A new diagram. I've changed switch 1 to a double pole center off unit as the wiring for the indicator lights can be accomplished using it. It's also cheaper. I've also illustrated a flashing buzzer for use with the timer.

As always, click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17":



I hope this helps.

P-J
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Haggerty View Post
The power source is converted to 4 wire 240 through the spa panel GFCI providing an equipment ground.... as I understand it anyway.

Thanks for the replies so far!
I'm curious how this works. If you have 2 hots and a ground going into the GFCI how do you get 2 hots, a ground, and a neutral coming out? Can someone else chime in and explain it? I'm having a hard time understanding.
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:17 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by poolshark021 View Post
I'm curious how this works. If you have 2 hots and a ground going into the GFCI how do you get 2 hots, a ground, and a neutral coming out? Can someone else chime in and explain it? I'm having a hard time understanding.
It boils down to 'pre 1995 NEC code' that it is not 2 hots and a ground.!

It is 2 hots and a neutral. Using that info (AFTER) an outlet there is an opportunity to develop a '4 wire' system from that.

The key is the building wiring vs the plug in wiring..
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Old 07-28-2011, 05:46 PM   #9
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Thanks so much PJ. Parts are on order and I'm thrilled to know I will never be forced to brew a propane batch again. I'll probably have some questions during the build so I hope bothering you once or twice more is ok. This is one of those projects that needs to be triple checked to be safe.

I'll post some pics of the build. Nothing too special but I can't wait to brew electric.

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Old 07-28-2011, 06:22 PM   #10
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No problem.

I hope you really enjoy your build and the setup.

Pictures are always great.

P-J



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